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+--- Thread: Russia-Ukraine gas conflict (/thread-2356.html)
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
TRUTH Wrote:sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:I am able to watch all Russians TV-channels
aha so Crimea population must be lying when complaining on damages caused by Ukrainian nationalists?
The only way the watch Russian TV in through satellite dishes (not everyone can buy it)
I think all people who are from Ukraine here just LOL & smile reading that!
My recommendation: It's stupid to rely on Russian TV when it comes to anything about Ukraine! Usually they mix 10% of fact and 90% of lies.
FOR EXAMPLE: Today Russian TV shows group of members of "Vitrenko block" (who's population support is about 0.01%) with comment that gas dispute bring MASSSIVE manifestations of people in Ukraine against president Yuschenko!
FUNNY YEAH? But what people in Russia think watchin gthat? They don't know the truth!
Alas...that is about almost 90% of russian channels!
Why Orange coalition protests against declaring Russian as second official language of Ukraine? If they voted for, I would truly believe that these coalition is for Democracy as it would be great for those who considers Russian as first language. I would do believe that Ukraine is free country , treating people regardless national identity . But now I see that Orange Government is nationalistic, which suppress people who are not considered Ukrainians
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Guest - 01-14-2009
[quote/] FOR EXAMPLE: Today Russian TV shows group of members of "Vitrenko block" (who's population support is about 0.01%) with comment that gas dispute bring MASSSIVE manifestations of people in Ukraine against president Yuschenko! FUNNY YEAH? But what people in Russia think watchin gthat? They don't know the truth! Alas...that is about almost 90% of russian channels![/quote]
It's just the beginning, puppy... What would you say after Party of Regions (with at least 35% of support) and communists (another 10%) will start there campaign. Actually, their leaders had already called for resign of Timoshenko & Yuschenko's impeachment?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - JUST UKRAINIAN - 01-14-2009
TYPICAL RUSSIAN ATTITUDE TO UKRAINIANS:
If Russian loves Russia - he is a patriot. If Ukrainian loves Ukraine - he is a nationalist and Russophobe.
If Russian says "khohol" - this is just a kind irony about Slavonic brother. If Ukrainian says "moskal" - he reveals his nationalistic attitude of antirussian essence.
If Russian is going on rally - he defends his rights. If Ukrainian goes on rally - he is making that for US money with antirussian goal.
If Russian president has a meeting with US president - that is just a sign of relationship between two countries. If the Ukrainian president meets with US president – thus they make some plans against Russia.
If Russian speaks in Russian – he is simply Russian. If Ukrainian speaks Ukrainian language – he is fascist and nationalist.
If the president of Russia declares patriotic slogans he is just a good normal president. If the president of Ukraine declares patriotic slogans - he is antirussian US made puppet.
If Russian government does not agree with the Ukrainian government – they just defend their national interests. If the Ukrainian government does not agree with Russian government – WHATS A HELL IS THAT? WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE?
--------------------------------------
I ask RUSSIANS: Are you not tired of that stereotypes that become already so common even on TV not to say Russian press and ordinary people!?
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - Olga - 01-14-2009
I am telling you again that Russia through Gas trade gets money for budget to carry out its obligation. There is no sense in stopping gas supply. Putin is busy in solving economic problems , he needs money. If Ukraine do not wish to buy Russian gas it is okay. But Russia cannot continue supply which gets reduced after passing trough transit pipeline. Gazprom needs money as well and it does not want to gain "unreliable". Think who is benefiting again[/quote]
So we get back to the same question: if gas trade is so important, why Russia does not use the possibility to transfer gas via another route? Why? If it is so important and they have approvements of gas stealing, they SHOULD continue supplying gas to EU as they are obliged and ask Ukraine (in case they have approvements of stealing gas of course) to response at the International Court!
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
Olga Wrote:In short? OK, in short words. Look, what is going on in the world now. All countries are pressed by the global financial and ecomonic crisis. And in this difficult times for all of us, Mr. Putin does his best to deep this crisis for Russian, Ukrainian and EU peoples. That's not enough? Mr. Putin's regime reminds me regime of Stalin. And if you look deeper, not just in the side of Moscow, but in the side of Russia in general, you will see that Russian people are suffering now much more than even Ukrainians. Im not against Russians, I am against the regime. I do not protect Mr. Yushenko, I do not want to consider my country as a thief or "bloody ukrainians" like I read here in this forum!
As I understood you blame Putin for suppressing Ukraine? right? As you may remember Gazprom offered 250 USD for gas, it was Yushchenko who denied. So why blame Putin???
"Bloody Ukrainians" said by others, not by Putin. He said yesterday that he like Ukrainians like brothers /I've heard it.
To come to agreement there should be will from both sides: Putin always remind on TV he is ready for talk with Ukrainians.
As concerning poverty, it is heritage of Soviet Union. Putin tries to reduce it in Russia but he is almost alone. Personally I think that we must not rely on politicians to live better but it is in our hands to improve living conditions. One will be wealthy who works !
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Guest - 01-14-2009
[/quote]Why Orange coalition protests against declaring Russian as second official language of Ukraine? If they voted for, I would truly believe that these coalition is for Democracy as it would be great for those who considers Russian as first language. I would do believe that Ukraine is free country , treating people regardless national identity . But now I see that Orange Government is nationalistic, which suppress people who are not considered Ukrainians[/quote]
Well...The problem is not that simple. The problem is that there is NO even a SINGLE Ukrainian school in Russia. There is NO even a SINGLE Ukrainian weekly magazine or daily newspaper in Russia. There is NO even a SINGLE Ukrainian daily TV channel in Russia. BUT there are millions of Ukrainians in Russia and smth like 20 mln of Ukrainian origin.
The only what Ukrainians have in Russia is a Sunday school or folk group or a newspaper published on irregular basis by some cultural center. Thats it!
Just in turn: 70% of press in Ukraine is in Russian.
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
Olga Wrote:I am telling you again that Russia through Gas trade gets money for budget to carry out its obligation. There is no sense in stopping gas supply. Putin is busy in solving economic problems , he needs money. If Ukraine do not wish to buy Russian gas it is okay. But Russia cannot continue supply which gets reduced after passing trough transit pipeline. Gazprom needs money as well and it does not want to gain "unreliable". Think who is benefiting again
So we get back to the same question: if gas trade is so important, why Russia does not use the possibility to transfer gas via another route? Why? If it is so important and they have approvements of gas stealing, they SHOULD continue supplying gas to EU as they are obliged and ask Ukraine (in case they have approvements of stealing gas of course) to response at the International Court![/quote]
Olya , there are limits for passing gas trough Belorussia. 80% of gas passed through Ukraine, it is impossible to pass these amoung trough existing pipelines. It will be so when North Stream is built, but it is under construction yet! The problem for Gasprom is that it can't bypass Ukraine for the moment to fulfill its obligations given to EU. Putin just needs money. Gas prices are high as there is great need in gas in the world. Oil is cheap as car industries are in crisis , sales are low. But gas is required for heating and other purposes
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Guest - 01-14-2009
Guest Wrote:[quote/] FOR EXAMPLE: Today Russian TV shows group of members of "Vitrenko block" (who's population support is about 0.01%) with comment that gas dispute bring MASSSIVE manifestations of people in Ukraine against president Yuschenko! FUNNY YEAH? But what people in Russia think watchin gthat? They don't know the truth! Alas...that is about almost 90% of russian channels!
It's just the beginning, puppy... What would you say after Party of Regions (with at least 35% of support) and communists (another 10%) will start there campaign. Actually, their leaders had already called for resign of Timoshenko & Yuschenko's impeachment?[/quote]
SURE...They got a signal from Moscow already...But commi and "regionals" whos leader spent 2 terms in criminal jail always made an antiukrainian lobby in parliament. Nothing new....
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Guest - 01-14-2009
TYPICAL RUSSIAN ATTITUDE TO UKRAINIANS:
If Russian loves Russia - he is a patriot. If Ukrainian loves Ukraine - he is a nationalist and Russophobe.
If Russian says "khohol" - this is just a kind irony about Slavonic brother. If Ukrainian says "moskal" - he reveals his nationalistic attitude of antirussian essence.
If Russian is going on rally - he defends his rights. If Ukrainian goes on rally - he is making that for US money with antirussian goal.
If Russian president has a meeting with US president - that is just a sign of relationship between two countries. If the Ukrainian president meets with US president – thus they make some plans against Russia.
If Russian speaks in Russian – he is simply Russian. If Ukrainian speaks Ukrainian language – he is fascist and nationalist.
If the president of Russia declares patriotic slogans he is just a good normal president. If the president of Ukraine declares patriotic slogans - he is antirussian US made puppet.
If Russian government does not agree with the Ukrainian government – they just defend their national interests. If the Ukrainian government does not agree with Russian government – WHATS A HELL IS THAT? WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE?
--------------------------------------
I ask RUSSIANS: Are you not tired of that stereotypes that become already so common even on TV not to say Russian press and ordinary people!?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Max - 01-14-2009
Quote:Max, firstly, Gazprom and Naftogaz both signed all protocols!You don’t understand, these are three-side protocols about monitoring. And I mean annual technical intergovernmental protocols which define regimes, volumes, routes etc.
Quote:Max, you don't realize obvious technical things
I’m not a technical expert. But what you talk is ignorance.
Yes I always mean cubic meters but my English is not perfect. I think it’s automatic transfer of Ukrainian linguistic construction. So read everywhere cubic and that’s fine. Let is be.
Technical gas makes 15% of overall flow and it is intended to be burned in compressors. This gives them energy to create pressure and drive gas under highest pressure forward. Technical gas is taken away from total flow and we have to buy it at own expense.
Since Ukraine has no contract with Russia we have to get this gas or take it away from pipe.
Quote:Sudja gas station have been used for gas transit for decades
Yes but it drives gas to completely different direction, via different route, never to Moldova and never through internal GTS and Orlovka. You just have no idea about routes and pipes you think we can distribute it as we want. This is brutal mistake.
Russia sent request for transit of 76 millions of cubic meters through untraditional route so it was rejected.
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - Olga - 01-14-2009
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Olga Wrote:In short? OK, in short words. Look, what is going on in the world now. All countries are pressed by the global financial and ecomonic crisis. And in this difficult times for all of us, Mr. Putin does his best to deep this crisis for Russian, Ukrainian and EU peoples. That's not enough? Mr. Putin's regime reminds me regime of Stalin. And if you look deeper, not just in the side of Moscow, but in the side of Russia in general, you will see that Russian people are suffering now much more than even Ukrainians. Im not against Russians, I am against the regime. I do not protect Mr. Yushenko, I do not want to consider my country as a thief or "bloody ukrainians" like I read here in this forum!
As I understood you blame Putin for suppressing Ukraine? right? As you may remember Gazprom offered 250 USD for gas, it was Yushchenko who denied. So why blame Putin???
"Bloody Ukrainians" said by others, not by Putin. He said yesterday that he like Ukrainians like brothers /I've heard it.
To come to agreement there should be will from both sides: Putin always remind on TV he is ready for talk with Ukrainians.
As concerning poverty, it is heritage of Soviet Union. Putin tries to reduce it in Russia but he is almost alone. Personally I think that we must not rely on politicians to live better but it is in our hands to improve living conditions. One will be wealthy who works !
My dear friend! Of course, I hope that time will show...I do not know where you are from, I would say you are from Russia...Mr. Putin said he loves Ukrainians...you made me laughing again...do you really think it is to believe in? If Mr. Putin loves us so much, why did he let to Gazprom to transit gas for EU via the route which is not suitable for it and in case Ukraine open it for EU gas, a half of my country will be left without heating and gas at all??? I would prefer he "loves" us less..
Please understand, I do not protect the official Kiev and I have a lot to say them too, but I think that the times we have now are not the best ones to continue playing "political games' when peoples are so much suffering!
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
Why Orange coalition protests against declaring Russian as second official language of Ukraine? If they voted for, I would truly believe that these coalition is for Democracy as it would be great for those who considers Russian as first language. I would do believe that Ukraine is free country , treating people regardless national identity . But now I see that Orange Government is nationalistic, which suppress people who are not considered Ukrainians[/quote]
Well...The problem is not that simple. The problem is that there is NO even a SINGLE Ukrainian school in Russia. There is NO even a SINGLE Ukrainian weekly magazine or daily newspaper in Russia. There is NO even a SINGLE Ukrainian daily TV channel in Russia. BUT there are millions of Ukrainians in Russia and smth like 20 mln of Ukrainian origin.
The only what Ukrainians have in Russia is a Sunday school or folk group or a newspaper published on irregular basis by some cultural center. Thats it!
Just in turn: 70% of press in Ukraine is in Russian.[/quote]
It is like a circle. If Ukraine is democratic, it will be great to do first move. Then Russia will be in obligation to built schools for Ukrainians and support press in Ukrainian. I do believe that one must start supporting minority in one's country who feels more democratic to show a good example of it!
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - FUN - 01-14-2009
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Olga Wrote:I am telling you again that Russia through Gas trade gets money for budget to carry out its obligation. There is no sense in stopping gas supply. Putin is busy in solving economic problems , he needs money. If Ukraine do not wish to buy Russian gas it is okay. But Russia cannot continue supply which gets reduced after passing trough transit pipeline. Gazprom needs money as well and it does not want to gain "unreliable". Think who is benefiting again
So we get back to the same question: if gas trade is so important, why Russia does not use the possibility to transfer gas via another route? Why? If it is so important and they have approvements of gas stealing, they SHOULD continue supplying gas to EU as they are obliged and ask Ukraine (in case they have approvements of stealing gas of course) to response at the International Court!
Olya , there are limits for passing gas trough Belorussia. 80% of gas passed through Ukraine, it is impossible to pass these amoung trough existing pipelines. It will be so when North Stream is built, but it is under construction yet! The problem for Gasprom is that it can't bypass Ukraine for the moment to fulfill its obligations given to EU. Putin just needs money. Gas prices are high as there is great need in gas in the world. Oil is cheap as car industries are in crisis , sales are low. But gas is required for heating and other purposes[/quote]
Never trust Russian TV!
Even if Russia will be able to build 2 "North Streams" (& thats is questionable now - as foreign participation and investemnts requeired) the transit via Ukraine won't be less than 60% or even more as the consumption in Europe is getting higher every year!
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
Guest Wrote:TYPICAL RUSSIAN ATTITUDE TO UKRAINIANS:
If Russian loves Russia - he is a patriot. If Ukrainian loves Ukraine - he is a nationalist and Russophobe.
If Russian says "khohol" - this is just a kind irony about Slavonic brother. If Ukrainian says "moskal" - he reveals his nationalistic attitude of antirussian essence.
If Russian is going on rally - he defends his rights. If Ukrainian goes on rally - he is making that for US money with antirussian goal.
If Russian president has a meeting with US president - that is just a sign of relationship between two countries. If the Ukrainian president meets with US president – thus they make some plans against Russia.
If Russian speaks in Russian – he is simply Russian. If Ukrainian speaks Ukrainian language – he is fascist and nationalist.
If the president of Russia declares patriotic slogans he is just a good normal president. If the president of Ukraine declares patriotic slogans - he is antirussian US made puppet.
If Russian government does not agree with the Ukrainian government – they just defend their national interests. If the Ukrainian government does not agree with Russian government – WHATS A HELL IS THAT? WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE?
--------------------------------------
I ask RUSSIANS: Are you not tired of that stereotypes that become already so common even on TV not to say Russian press and ordinary people!?
Personally I think that nationalism is okay until it troubles minorities. I always knew that Ukrainian and Russians are the same nation along with Belorussians. We have more common issues rather than different. I feel happy for Ukrainians when they have succeeded in anything, but fill frustrated when good American guys plays on national santiments. Again who is benefiting from this conflict?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Romano Prodi - 01-14-2009
Dear Max, what protocols do you really mean?
There's acting contract on gas transit between Russia and Ukraine. It's on effect until 2010!
There's no need to sign another!
Today Ukraine asked Russia to provide about 300 million cm3 gas for every month for no charge (But the price of this is hundreds of millions U$). As they say they need this gas to provide the transit. But, as I said there's a contract, which specified that Ukraine should provide the tecnical gas for transit, not Russia.
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
Quote: do not know where you are from, I would say you are from Russia.I am from Tajikistan. I felt enough from nationalism of early 90s here but it is away now.
Quote:Never trust Russian TV!Well! I have to trust EU or US press then??? i say i will NEVER
USA and EU wanting for good time to bankrupt Ukraine and Russia to buy all our factories and deposits for free like they had chance to do in 90s. They benefit from escalating the conflict playing on national feelings.
This is business issue for them. They need our material values and what us to degraded and die because of low level of birth rate. simple as that. It is a fact and they are unable to put their influence on us untill we re strong materially and spiritually.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Lucy:) - 01-14-2009
Ha!!! Russians suddenly decided to change the route of transiting within Ukraine, knowing beforehand that there will be difficulties in transportin'. in addition they didn't support nescesary pressure. And now they're wondering why there are still no gas in Europe. Well done
uper . And after that Russia is going to demand from Ukraine to pay for all the loss, that Russia is now facing with..Considering suggestions that Ukraine wants to show how agressive Russia is, because Yustchenko wants to get money from EU:
Well, it's Russian government wants to frighten Europe with cold frezzing winters hopping to gain money from Europe for building baltic pipeline, because Russia is in hard position due to financial crisisand hasn't enough money for that purpose. Russia has lost about 1/5th of its gold reserves in the last months and is going to lose more, prices of oil and gas are reducing. In summer market price of gas should decrease to 170-200 $, and then Europe can discuss the posibillity of new contracts with Russia, what is unprofitable for the last. So Pootin needs to learn Europe, how to behave...
And we all see how Europe is turning to the puppet of Putin. It's all very-very sad ;(
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
Romano Prodi Wrote:Dear Max, what protocols do you really mean?short, correct and clearly said.
There's acting contract on gas transit between Russia and Ukraine. It's on effect until 2010!
There's no need to sign another!
Today Ukraine asked Russia to provide about 300 million cm3 gas for every month for no charge (But the price of this is hundreds of millions U$). As they say they need this gas to provide the transit. But, as I said there's a contract, which specified that Ukraine should provide the tecnical gas for transit, not Russia.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
Lucy:) Wrote:Ha!!! Russians suddenly decided to change the route of transiting within Ukraine, knowing beforehand that there will be difficulties in transportin'. in addition they didn't support nescesary pressure. And now they're wondering why there are still no gas in Europe. Well done:quoi Lucy, how old are you???
Considering suggestions that Ukraine wants to show how agressive Russia is, because Yustchenko wants to get money from EU:
Well, it's Russian government wants to frighten Europe with cold frezzing winters hopping to gain money from Europe for building baltic pipeline, because Russia is in hard position due to financial crisisand hasn't enough money for that purpose. Russia has lost about 1/5th of its gold reserves in the last months and is going to lose more, prices of oil and gas are reducing. In summer market price of gas should decrease to 170-200 $, and then Europe can discuss the posibillity of new contracts with Russia, what is unprofitable for the last. So Pootin needs to learn Europe, how to behave...
And we all see how Europe is turning to the puppet of Putin. It's all very-very sad ;(
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Max - 01-14-2009
Romano Prodi Wrote:Dear Max, what protocols do you really mean?
Well I think documents are closer to me.
Romano, there are three different agreements which regulate transit and they contradict each other. Russia has very unspecified deal to make transit till 2013 but this document is very vague. If you say about 2010 so it’s about price of 1.6$. But this price was initially linked to gas price of 50$ (!).
Accept this we have to sign annual intergovernmental protocols which define technical questions as volumes, routes, tariffs etc.
The technical gas we buy also in Russia but we have not contract and prices so we can’t buy it. Besides, Russia should pay for transit in advance but it didn’t pay us anything for this year. How we can provide transit and buy gas if we are not paid ?!
In 2006 Russia broke agreement about prices and lifts prices up every year. But the price of transit is still same. That’s why Ukrainian court denounced it.
On the whole I have to say president, Prime minister and Parliament may denounce all agreements if they want. We also had memorandum this fall about three-year transitional period for accepting European prices for gas and transit but Kremlin just denounced it few days ago. Simple.
Anyway we have legal relations about transit with Russia not with EU, this is my idea. If they can’t arrange deal with transporter, they should clear relations with buyers alone.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Guest - 01-14-2009
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Romano Prodi Wrote:Dear Max, what protocols do you really mean?short, correct and clearly said.
There's acting contract on gas transit between Russia and Ukraine. It's on effect until 2010!
There's no need to sign another!
Today Ukraine asked Russia to provide about 300 million cm3 gas for every month for no charge (But the price of this is hundreds of millions U$). As they say they need this gas to provide the transit. But, as I said there's a contract, which specified that Ukraine should provide the tecnical gas for transit, not Russia.
Contract? Russia has rejected all previous agreements and new have not been signed yet.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - sektor_Gaza - 01-14-2009
Guest Wrote:sektor_Gaza Wrote:Romano Prodi Wrote:Dear Max, what protocols do you really mean?short, correct and clearly said.
There's acting contract on gas transit between Russia and Ukraine. It's on effect until 2010!
There's no need to sign another!
Today Ukraine asked Russia to provide about 300 million cm3 gas for every month for no charge (But the price of this is hundreds of millions U$). As they say they need this gas to provide the transit. But, as I said there's a contract, which specified that Ukraine should provide the tecnical gas for transit, not Russia.
Contract? Russia has rejected all previous agreements and new have not been signed yet.
Yes it is existing and is still in power! You've been just brainwashed!
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Ukrainian - 01-14-2009
Guest Wrote:It's just the beginning, puppy... What would you say after Party of Regions (with at least 35% of support) and communists (another 10%) will start there campaign. Actually, their leaders had already called for resign of Timoshenko & Yuschenko's impeachment?All right, you call the position that strongly supported by at least 40% of Ukrainian population as "antiukrainian"!!!! Just because they don't want to scream your crazy rusophobic slogans, and other demn stoooooped tras like "unique nation"!!! That's exactly "orange fascist" type of thinking. Who are not with you are "antiukrainian"!!! And afterwards, you're trying to talk about democracy!!! What do you, fascists, know about democracy!!!
SURE...They got a signal from Moscow already...But commi and "regionals" whos leader spent 2 terms in criminal jail always made an antiukrainian lobby in parliament. Nothing new....
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Lucy:) - 01-14-2009
Contract? Russia has rejected all previous agreements and new have not been signed yet.[/quote]
Yes it is existing and is still in power! You've been just brainwashed![/quote]
Before Ukraine had contract with Russia as for gas supplies til 2009. However it was annulated in 2005 under Russian pressure. Don't name Russia when you want to refer some documents. For Russia in power is that what Putin wants exactly at this time. That's why Gazprom and Naftogaz sign annual connract, not long-termed
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - ukrainian - 01-14-2009
and pls, stop those speculation about jell. The fact is that mr.Yuschenco’s father was a warder in Auschwitz concentration camp. Tell me, what is worst?