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+--- Thread: Russia-Ukraine gas conflict (/thread-2356.html)
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Ukrajinka - 01-13-2009
[/quote]You'd better say "Gazprom and some ukrainian oligarchs" since they own RosUkrEnergo 50 on 50. However Gazprom is almost state corporation (though it's nominaly Public Joint-Stock Company), it gives away huge amount of money as taxes, and state benefits from owning Gazprom share as well. More or less you can see what's about them.[/quote]
Gazprom is no good example of transparency, but even it looks good in comparison to RosUkrEnergo. It's a shady enterprise for sure! I mean, how many middlemen you need to keep the taps open? And you are right about 50/50 ownership.
In this gas crisis both countries lost. And now we look like it's a bunch of state-level mafia guys to the rest of the world. So the only way out of the situation is to present it like a political dispute between Russia and Ukraine. Than you can blame the other side easily and get to keep your face (somewhat of course).
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Ukrajinka - 01-13-2009
ukrainian Wrote:I can see ukrainian and russian TV news every day and I want say that it is cold war. Russian politicians use TV and press for popularization untiukraine spirits in Russia and even in Ukraine. Gas it's only lever that help Russia reach target and to influence deeply on Ukraine and EU.
Russian politicians lok like spiteful clowns, urainian and EU like herd of rams :deg
+1!
I live in Russia and it is certainly true. Russian state propaganda uses every little chance to discredit Ukraine and raise anti-Ukrainian feelings in people. In fact, it is an unwritten policy not to say anything good about Ukraine in the news regardless of the situation.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Romano Prodi - 01-13-2009
Guys, the main problem is that when we hear "Russia" we think "cold war", "communists", "Putin's authoritarian regime" etc. On the other hand when we hear "Ukraine" we think "Democracy", "Elections", "NATO" etc. Well, let's reject the stereotypes and reasonably look at these countries.
Firstly, Russia is not the USSR, but it is very authoritarian! But this is not communist country. Russians like money and may be described as more capitalists than Europeans or Americans. Russia don't want to lose the control over the former USSR republics. But, at the same time they don't wan't to lose their money, especially in the crisis time! I think only stupid person in these situation will pursue two objects! Putin is authoritarian, conceited but his not a foul... He'll better earn money to prevent the revolt of the hungry in his country.
Secondly, Ukraine, despite they have free elections, is not democratc state! Ukraine is very corrupted, even more than Russia, the population is divided, about 50 per cent still want to be with Russia and about 70 per cent do not want to see their country in NATO! Ukrainian President has the worst political rating in the world: about 3 per cent, I think Mugabe has more! Ukraine with its yearly elections (in cause of instability and corruption) is bankrupt. But they have to hold new elections, so the only way to gain the money is not to pay for gas, dishonour authoritarian Russia and get some grants from the US and EU. I'll remind you, that the gas crisis appeared a couple weeks after Condoleezza's visit to Ukraine!
These thoughts brought me to the conclusion, that this is the last shit of G. "Dubya" Bush.
Oh, does anybody see my boots?
lurp
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Pete - 01-14-2009
JHSussex Wrote:> Anti-russian propaganda screams now that Russia . . .
I think this is the root of the problem. There's no such thing as 'anti-Russian' propaganda. People would much prefer to take no interest in Russia. Russia of course hates this above all things. And as for such an impassioned defence of Gazprom, I can't imagine wanting to passionately defend British Gas. The writer must be aware on some level that Gazprom is the arm of the Russian Federation's authoritarian regime.
Where did you find "impassioned defence of Gazprom" I wonder. I just told what is obvious enough.
First of all Gazprom is merchant. And as any merchant, it is interested in commerce above anything else. Gazprom sells gas to Georgia which pays on normal schedule. Why would it do so if it was "arm of authoritarian regime" like you said? It's well known that Putin hates Saakashvili. Gazprom also sells gas to Baltic states which are anything but nice towards Russia and Kremlin in their speeches and political moves (and also treat unfairly russian-speaking minority in their countries). If it was a "weapon" like you anglo-saxons say, why aren't there multi gas wars with all "problematic" (for russian government) Eastern Europe countries? Why the only big-scale and repeating crisis in gas sphere occurs with the only country
- which has extremely unstable (if only you don't call permanent chaos "stability") and impotent political establishment which can't solve its own differences ever since they came to power;
- whose president has like 4-6% approval rate, but still clings to his position, continuing to force unpopular among ukrainian people, but US-oriented (i.e. anti-russian) social, political and cultural decisions;
- whose prime-minister made her fortune on some obscure gas machinations even before "orange revolution";
- which nevertheless posseses key factor - main GTS to EU for russian natural gas.
Can you answer this simple question -Why- with reasonable arguments?
You know, when they started their "orange revolt" in 2004 I had discussions with some friends from Ukraine. Many of them were telling me that it's not a simple power-switching but great hope for free democratic and prosperous future. Many promises were given to them and they followed. "Okay", - I said to them, "Though I do not believe in what your orange leaders say and what they promise, though I am sure that it's all financed from abroad to bring their agent of inluence and has nothing to do with the good of ukrainians people, let's live on and see how it turns out, and I'll be very happy for you if I am mistaken and they build you civilized and respectable state."
Sadly, 4 years of tragicomedy "Political life of Ukraine" proved that I was right. And after watching their orange (and white-blue) leaders fighting, badmouthing, intriguing, betraying each other, while keeping the power divided only among their 3 "clans" - why should I beleive in their honesty and fairness in gas transit relations? Desperately provoking crisis by declining price many EU countries would be excited to get, stealing transit gas, blaming Gazprom, playing innocent victim before EU and so on - fits perfectly the imprudent style they used to have for their internal politics.
Still, people like you don't even let a thought about ukrainian responsibility for the troubles we all (except UK) are in. So does anti-russian propaganda (we can use politically correct definition, something like "contra-russian observations in media") exist in reality? I'm afraid so, since its results we see so often. Like this time when you westerns turn mostly economical fight [bankrupt, corruted and fighting each other for politic domination ukranians blackmail russian state corporation which is kinda helpless before such violation of transit contract, but doesn't want to surrender like it did in 2006 because nowadays it has its own financial troubles due to world crisis] into another political drama [of big bad russian bear tearing apart poor white fluffy ukrainian sheep to make from its hide a scarecrow for european herd which doesn't want to surrender to bears unholy might].
ukrainian Wrote:Gas it's only lever that help Russia reach target and to influence deeply on Ukraine and EU.Well, this is certain falsehood. Russia has deepest influence on Ukraine not because "only gas" but due to untornable cultural and historical ties. After being single country for longer than USA exists, it's hard to stop all relations no matter how hard your president and his neo-nationalistic watchdogs try. By the way, didn't he ban russian tv in Ukraine not so long ago? What channels do you watch out there then? ^^
Ukrajinka Wrote:Gazprom is no good example of transparency, but even it looks good in comparison to RosUkrEnergo. It's a shady enterprise for sure! I mean, how many middlemen you need to keep the taps open? And you are right about 50/50 ownership.I do not protect Gazprom, or make any example from it, it's hard to remain unstained in big commerce, especially in Russia. We have much to improve, and I hope we will do it little by little. But well, when our UK friend up there mindlessly repeats after his newspapers stuff about "Gazprom as arm of regime" not trying to get into the matter of the cause - that's so disappointing.
In this gas crisis both countries lost. And now we look like it's a bunch of state-level mafia guys to the rest of the world. So the only way out of the situation is to present it like a political dispute between Russia and Ukraine.
And the most unfortunate is that russian-european relations are threated again. As if there is really some hidden hand which systematically prevents us from cooperating and working together to improve life for all of us, europeans, ukrainians, russians...
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - liquid-alco - 01-14-2009
Everything needs comparing.
Ukraine wants to buy gas for $200 per 1000 cubic meters
Russia wants to sell for $450.
Norway sells gas to friendly UK for 105 pence per therm (about 382 br.pounds per 1000 c.m. or about $555)
The question is: Why should Russia sell gas to a state with hostile goverment almost 3 times cheaper than mutual friends in Europe do for each other? :roll:
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - anikonov - 01-14-2009
liquid-alco Wrote:Everything needs comparing.
Ukraine wants to buy gas for $200 per 1000 cubic meters
Russia wants to sell for $450.
Norway sells gas to friendly UK for 105 pence per therm (about 382 br.pounds per 1000 c.m. or about $555)
The question is: Why should Russia sell gas to a state with hostile goverment almost 3 times cheaper than mutual friends in Europe do for each other? :roll:
Certantly, Russia is unfriendly country toward Ukraine as it sells the gas to Ukraine at about 50% less than it sells to European country. But I can see some improvements now.
Well, however, Ukraine is not alone. And I can point out to the countries that are indeed friendly towards Ukraine. They are those of EU, including UK, and the United States as these country seems are not willing to subsidaze ukrainian economy at the scale of what Russia did during past 18 years.
In my opinion, the United States have had already provided enough economic help to secure emerging ukrainian democracy in form of the provided 5 million to secure the election of pro-american Yuschenko as Ukrainian president.
Only 76 millions through incorrect route - Max - 01-14-2009
Russia still makes all possible to not supply gas to EU. Instead of promised full restore of 300 millions of square meter a day through all 6 European pipes Russia directed 76 millions through only station Sudja. This gas was intended only for satellites as Moldova and Balkan countries. Russia still has no plans to restore supply to Central Europe.
The route Sudja-Moldova is untraditional, technologically incorrect and dangerous for Ukrainian GTS. Naftogas offered to drive gas in mentioned destination through its usual old route. Gazprom denied.
Meanwhile Russia still didn’t sign obligatory annual inter-governmental technical protocols which agree volumes, routes, stations, regimes, customs-tariffs and prices. Without these protocols Russian transit through Ukraine is illegal and technologically impossible.
Besides there is unsolved question about so called “technological” gas which is burned in compressors to drive “commercial” gas. It makes around 15% of overall flow. Ukraine should buy it on own expense but we have not contract and we have not price. Of course no one will use already bought gas from stores which is intended for out homes and industry. Gazprom should grant this gas to Ukraine however it denies.
President Yushchenko on his yesterday’s press-conference warned the price of transit for Russia MAY go up 10$.
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Ivan - 01-14-2009
Ukrainian officials said Gazprom had "deliberately" sent the gas by a route that would have meant switching off gas to Ukrainian consumers in the east of the country. Instead of supplying gas via the traditional route, through Ukraine's Belgorod and Rostov region, it had been sent on a bypass route which would paralyse supplies to the towns of Donetsk and Luhansk. "This is just provocation against Ukraine," said Bohdan Sokolovsky, Ukraine's commissioner for energy security.
Ukraine's president, Viktor Yushchenko, went further. His office compared Russia's actions to those of the Nazis during the wartime siege of Leningrad. Andrei Kislinksy, deputy head of Ukraine's presidential secretariat, said the gas war "increasingly resembles the blockade of Leningrad after the failure of the blitzkrieg" and added that its primary purpose seemed to be about making Yushchenko step down from office.
The question is how long Mr.Putin is going to hold the Europeans hostages of his imperialistic policy?
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - Paul - 01-14-2009
Gas for People Wrote:that bloody bastards, Bendera, men, stealing gas! they are criminals! Western ukraine is full of thieves and Nazis, which hate Romania!
Eastern Ukraine is full of good and kind people. God help them to stay against nationalists from Western part of Ukraine!
This is an example of a hate speech and a call for violence and bloodshed. This message is a typical anti-Ukrainian information warfare piece that the Russian KGB operatives spread in many European forums these days. Just be aware.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - mirek - 01-14-2009
First of all - I am not Putin fanat. I lived in the USA long enought to see - what kind of government should be.
But, I am realist! In politik most important is power. All this "democratic" staff you can use for internal relations within country. But, in international affairs most important power. So, Putin is doing, what he want. He gave blow to Georgia and USA. Many was screaming - that is russians end. But look - does russia came to the end?
Same with Ukraine! Now you screaming - Russia lost! But see - Russia allready put down Ukraine with transit monitor. But Ukraine still did not get gas for 201 $.Putin is very smart, but immoral. If Yushenko and Ukraine could be less smart, but more moral and responsible - I was first to go to fight against Putin and Gasprom. But for now Yushenko is just piece of sh.t.
[/quote from Russian999]
My dear Russian999:
Even though you have been living in the USA for a long time, you still remain Soviet in the worst sense - you wanna fight, you wanna abuse, you wanna scold, you respect nothing but violance (according to your words). It's a pity... I do not think you would ever back a moral but weaker side. You respect only force, nothing else... How about great Russian culture? It teaches opposite, I think.
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Olga - 01-14-2009
Ivan Wrote:Ukrainian officials said Gazprom had "deliberately" sent the gas by a route that would have meant switching off gas to Ukrainian consumers in the east of the country. Instead of supplying gas via the traditional route, through Ukraine's Belgorod and Rostov region, it had been sent on a bypass route which would paralyse supplies to the towns of Donetsk and Luhansk. "This is just provocation against Ukraine," said Bohdan Sokolovsky, Ukraine's commissioner for energy security.
Ukraine's president, Viktor Yushchenko, went further. His office compared Russia's actions to those of the Nazis during the wartime siege of Leningrad. Andrei Kislinksy, deputy head of Ukraine's presidential secretariat, said the gas war "increasingly resembles the blockade of Leningrad after the failure of the blitzkrieg" and added that its primary purpose seemed to be about making Yushchenko step down from office.
The question is how long Mr.Putin is going to hold the Europeans hostages of his imperialistic policy?
Ivan, bravo! Nothing more to add! It is a pity that EU citizens mostly do not know the truth and what is really going on between Russia and Ukraine
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - Olga - 01-14-2009
My dear friends!
First of all, did any of you have (or see) any kind of approvements that Ukraine was stealing European gas?
Does any of you know FOR SURE that Ukraine didn't pay for the received gas in 2008? Or you just make your cocnclusions on what Mr. Putin said? Mr. Putin is God?
Then, why should Ukraine buy anything on the price it doesn't like or want? Yes, we need gas and we can CONSIDER weither Russian gas is as much attractive - for now it is NOT! So it's only our matter and decision weither we'll buy it on that extra price or not! Russia have obligations and contracts with EU on gas supply, so Russia SHOULD be responsible to fulfill the contracts!
We are ready to continue transiting gas to EU, but Russia do not want us to do it, but, instead, they do their best to blame Ukraine and discredit us behind EU! This is the only target of Russia in this situation and conflict.
I'm very sorry to understand that some EU countries and people are suffering now, but, do not be so silly and try to look in the depth of the situation. Ukraine just want to be an independent country and has a right to make its decisions itself...Russia do not want us to be independent from them.
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Highlander - 01-14-2009
Telegrapher UK,
Read the answer below your post - it's written in English.
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - BK - 01-14-2009
The soft belly of the Dragon is exposed --namely, the "black money" from fradulent gas transactions that Russia uses to distort Ukrainian politics and to feed its own elite. The EU is in a position to kill it simply by offering to assure Ukraine's gas supplies at the aggregate price paid by European countries -which is less than $300. It would force Russia to capitulate or face certain economic ruin. Does EU have the strength and wisdom to slay the dragon?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Lucy:) - 01-14-2009
I simply don't understand, how Ukraine could steal gas that was flowing to almost the WHOLE Europe . Don't people understand, that it's such a huge amount of gas, that Ukraine would have already drowned in it :haha
At first I had doubts, who is really guilty in this conflict. Now the situation is becomming clearer: at first Russia wants observers only to ukrainian pipelines, and thoug it then permitted access, it was not full. Maybe there is something to hide? Then Russia cavils at document signed with the help of the EU and instead of to let gas immediately flow in Europe, it makes Europe wait even more and again blames Ukraine, though european commision said Ukraine had fulfilled all that was required. But finally there is no gas at all, even when Russia turned on the valves. Now Gasprom states: "Ukraine again is siphoning the gas". Hmm... It's nonsense. Where is common sense? Russia forgot itself in playing. It's totally absurd!!! :oO :haha
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Taras - 01-14-2009
I did it for Ukraine. It is my site:
vadim.narod.tj
Like it???? :haha
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - SiD - 01-14-2009
Heh as always Ukrain is SOOO willing to resume transit. So it is Russia stoping supplies? One lie is unkovered they invented some more. Parhaps other time they will be just not in the mood to resume transit?
And Max from your words i understood that you personally do not think that Ukrain should transit any gas through its territory right? You just pointing illigall parts and "impossible" and unsigned documents and all.
Am i right that you do not like idea of resuming gas supplies to those who needs it?
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - Petro - 01-14-2009
Exactly it is!!! It is brain-damaged state. when you deal with Ukrainians, you loose as there is no trust. Since you can have under-pants left when passing through Ukraine. :roll:
Being Western does not mean being stupid, friends!
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - SiD - 01-14-2009
Lucy:) Wrote:I simply don't understand, how Ukraine could steal gas that was flowing to almost the WHOLE Europe . Don't people understand, that it's such a huge amount of gas, that Ukraine would have already drowned in it :haha
At first I had doubts, who is really guilty in this conflict. Now the situation is becomming clearer: at first Russia wants observers only to ukrainian pipelines, and thoug it then permitted access, it was not full. Maybe there is something to hide? Then Russia cavils at document signed with the help of the EU and instead of to let gas immediately flow in Europe, it makes Europe wait even more and again blames Ukraine, though european commision said Ukraine had fulfilled all that was required. But finally there is no gas at all, even when Russia turned on the valves. Now Gasprom states: "Ukraine again is siphoning the gas". Hmm... It's nonsense. Where is common sense? Russia forgot itself in playing. It's totally absurd!!! :oO :haha
Well you can have simple experiment just try to drink something from closed bottle. Have any progress? This is same absurd you talking about. Do not blame drink for not getting into your troat if you havent opened whats containing it.
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - WiTtNesS - 01-14-2009
After Russia re-started supplying gas, it has been again blocked by Ukraine:
Yesterday at the same time Yushchenko and Head of Naftogas gave interviews separately:
Yushchenko said:
"We do not block gas, we honestly fulfil all our obligations. if there's no gas, as russia has not re-started supplying it"
Naftogas Chief said:
"We are blocking Russian gas as Russia has not agreed the route with us. "
I said:
"Sayings of these people from Ukraine, contradicting one another. Lies again. I think they even do not care"
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Xavier - 01-14-2009
bloody ukrainians, let gas pass to Europe!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banghead
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - SiD - 01-14-2009
BK Wrote:The soft belly of the Dragon is exposed --namely, the "black money" from fradulent gas transactions that Russia uses to distort Ukrainian politics and to feed its own elite. The EU is in a position to kill it simply by offering to assure Ukraine's gas supplies at the aggregate price paid by European countries -which is less than $300. It would force Russia to capitulate or face certain economic ruin. Does EU have the strength and wisdom to slay the dragon?
Did i understood you correctly that you suggest EU that buys gas from Russia to sell it to Ukraine at "right" price
. Well i want to watch that . Besides it is nice solution buy gas and than offer it to Ukraine i do not think our government would care who pays. Or you have other things in head to assure Ukraine gas supplies? . Becouse your following sentence makes no sense at all.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Guest - 01-14-2009
Hmmmm...SiD, you are right! but when you try to drink anything from the bottle which is not in your hand - it doesn't matter either the bottle is opened or not and full or empty. I mean that Russia sent gas, but it sent it in very limited quantity and via a route which is not ready to supply gas to EU but is used for supplies within Ukraine.
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - Eugeny - 01-14-2009
Ivan Wrote:Ukrainian officials said Gazprom had "deliberately" sent the gas by a route that would have meant switching off gas to Ukrainian consumers in the east of the country. Instead of supplying gas via the traditional route, through Ukraine's Belgorod and Rostov region, it had been sent on a bypass route which would paralyse supplies to the towns of Donetsk and Luhansk. "This is just provocation against Ukraine," said Bohdan Sokolovsky, Ukraine's commissioner for energy security.How long Belgorod and Rostov are Ukraine's regions? Did I miss something? Did you seen the map? E.g.: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm">http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm</a><!-- m -->. Eastern Europeans are hostages of Ukrainian dumbocrathy.
Ukraine's president, Viktor Yushchenko, went further. His office compared Russia's actions to those of the Nazis during the wartime siege of Leningrad. Andrei Kislinksy, deputy head of Ukraine's presidential secretariat, said the gas war "increasingly resembles the blockade of Leningrad after the failure of the blitzkrieg" and added that its primary purpose seemed to be about making Yushchenko step down from office.
The question is how long Mr.Putin is going to hold the Europeans hostages of his imperialistic policy?
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - SiD - 01-14-2009
Olga Wrote:My dear friends!
First of all, did any of you have (or see) any kind of approvements that Ukraine was stealing European gas?
Does any of you know FOR SURE that Ukraine didn't pay for the received gas in 2008? Or you just make your cocnclusions on what Mr. Putin said? Mr. Putin is God?
Then, why should Ukraine buy anything on the price it doesn't like or want? Yes, we need gas and we can CONSIDER weither Russian gas is as much attractive - for now it is NOT! So it's only our matter and decision weither we'll buy it on that extra price or not! Russia have obligations and contracts with EU on gas supply, so Russia SHOULD be responsible to fulfill the contracts!
We are ready to continue transiting gas to EU, but Russia do not want us to do it, but, instead, they do their best to blame Ukraine and discredit us behind EU! This is the only target of Russia in this situation and conflict.
I'm very sorry to understand that some EU countries and people are suffering now, but, do not be so silly and try to look in the depth of the situation. Ukraine just want to be an independent country and has a right to make its decisions itself...Russia do not want us to be independent from them.
Bla bla bla. Russia it Russia that i wonder if EU ownes something to Ukraine? Resumed gas supplies were blocked and after that you tell that Ukraine is ready to continue supplies? Some people REALLY need that commodity and Ukranian government is more than willing to hold them as hostages of ther political games and constant power struggle.