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Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Black Sea - 01-18-2009
My dear Russian friends! Don't try to fool our europian and american ones! The main problem wasn't paying for gas buy Ukraine but obeying some Russia's terms and conditions far from gas supplying :evil:
Re: Ukraine said: We can give gas, but... - the truth - 01-18-2009
FIRST FACTt is that Ukraine doesn't have any business contract with Europe about gas,we have contract with russia about transit of russian gas from the border of russia to the border of European Union,and all of it was delivered in full measure which Europe paid to russia and Europe didn't make complains about that
the reason why Russia cutted off the gas to Ukraine on the 1st of January was that there were no agreement beetwen"Gasprom"and ukrainian"Naftogas" for the gas for ukraine on 30th of december .becouse Russia started to deny previous agreement about the price for next three years and on 30th "Gasprom"put new price of 420 dollars for barel of gas,which Ukraine refused to sign becouse it is highest price in europe at the time when the price for transit remans the same.The reason why "Gasprom"hAD RIGHT TO CUT OFF the gas for European union which has deal with "Gasprom"is still unanswered.the same there is no answer why they blame Ukraine
Russan"Gasprom"has a Goal for monopoly for gas in all Europe ,and Ukraine stands on its way,and as far as they capture it,they will have power on europe more and more,this is why they take risk to loose millions with each day and 18 countries of europe are without heat
We have right to choose any President our people wish,that fact that the President of Ukraine is Yushenko means will of UKRAINIAN People and Ukrainian people had to faith for that during Orange Revolution for that right to choose OUR will,not anybody's else will.as We start to choose the President who RUSSIA would LIKE<THE NEXT STEP is that Europe WIIL do that too.
Secondly,there is technological question:when they cut off the gas on the 1st of January ukrainian"Naftogas"was waiting for two hours,sending our own gas to Europe,and when the position of "Gasprom"becomes clear,they made the operation so called"revers"which means that they turned our gas sistem from transit to provide gas for our own needs for all ukraine:from east to west and they need to turn all pressure on the opposite way in order the our own gasfrom our own storages( for which we had paid to russia untill the last month of 2008 )when Russia sent some amount of gas for europe ,it is simply not possible to turn gas transport sistem for transit again with that pressure,and to put this sistem to "avers"instead of "revers",it is necessary that all sistem would return to ordinary full measure for to satisfy transit and a the same time to work for inner needs for ukraine too.
in this situation Ukrainian Goverment had to choose beetwen Ukrainian people or to sacrifice them in the name of any country of Europe,the same as any country of europe woudn't sicrifice their own people for sake of ukraine
Third position is that Ukraine owns it transit gas sistem and not going to give it to own someone else.So this comes to explanation why there is "information war"and lies they say against ukraine,the same as gas war of "Gasprom" and Russia,and our President don't even respond for what they say without any single provement becouse He is busy with actions.
Reply for Russian notice:
“
For your notice: the wife of the president of the Ukraine is a former employee of the US Department of State and citizen of the USA – Kathy Clare (now Catharine Chumachenko). She has a very influential hand in managing things on behave of the US in the Ukraine and Eastern Europe. Until very recently, following serious criticism from inside the country, she took Ukrainian citizenship. She is a very influential “housewife” in managing Ukrainian matters. She coordinated flows on behalf of US sponsors while organizing the “orange” revolution in the Ukraine that put her husband to power.
How about the wife of Obama working in the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, would that make you feel comfortable?
Yushenko would never have dared go so far in blocking gas to Europe had he not been backed up by US policy brewers. He is the president because he was sponsored through to presidency by US greenbacks. You don’t bite the hand of your master, do you?
Valentine Akishkin
“
________________________________________
Valentine Akishkin
Do wives of Russian politics drive them?
The wife of Ukrainian President has to love Him(the reason of changing her citizienship )and 3(!) little children she has to manage besides Ukrainian politic matters ....
Do You forget about freedom and love to human at all???Or
Do You Know ONLY Your Master’s hand?
"We see evil in others because we know evil through our own behavior. We never pardon those who wound us because we feel that we would never be pardoned. We tell others the painful truth because we want to hide it from ourselves. We take refuge in pride so that no-one can see how fragile we are. That is why, whenever you are judging your brother, bear in mind that it is you who are on trial. (Okakura Kakuso, The Book of Tea, 1904)
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Leonid - 01-18-2009
To spinoza in the zhopa
About monopolist
How it looks regarding all the Europe? As I said it is about 25%. Don't counfuse.
Anyway 80% Russian gaz goes to EU through Ukraine.
Regarding NorthStream and SouthStream, they are supposed to be alternative ways to supply EU with gas.
In this case gas supplies will not depend on Ukraine.
There will be a number of states owning these routes like Germany (as an example of proven partner).
Ukraine is not a good partner to work with as last years conflicts have clearly shown.
Thanks
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - sotnyk - 01-18-2009
russian999 Wrote:Russia wanted Ukraine to pay debt for two month. Ukraine did it, but Russia can get confirmation from bank only at 11 january. That is why Russia put Ukraine into category "not trusted client". So, at 1 january both sides should signe up new contract for 2009. Russia rised up price for gas until 250 dollars but Ukraine wanted 201 dollars.So, contract was not signed up. Russia halted gus supplay to Ukraine because no debt money and no new contract. Ukraine start to use illegaly transit gas, wich going through her territory to the west consumer. Russia said, that for 2009 gas Ukraine should pay same price, as west consumers - 418 dollars. Ukraine just ignore Russia. This is conflict - Ukraine illegaly taking gas, wich going to the west.
Is there any court decision stating that Ukraine was stilling the gas. How much was stolen?
About Ukraine ignoring Russia: as in any business you do not accept the ultimatums! If you face the ultimatum, what will you do?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Sotnyk - 01-18-2009
Leonid Wrote:I just briefly read the topic.
The main reason, for those guys who blame Russia, is that Russia uses its resources to dictate and so on.
But.. do you guys know this?
Europe dependence on Russia's gas is 25%
And 80% Russia's gas goes through Ukraine.
Interesting, Isn't it? Who is a monopolist?
Leonid, Russia
75% of gas needed by Ukraine is supplied by Russia. Russia has monopoly over gaz supply!
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - sotnyk - 01-18-2009
Leonid Wrote:To spinoza in the zhopa
About monopolist
Ukraine is not a good partner to work with as last years conflicts have clearly shown.
Ukraine has managed successfully to transit gaz since its independence! Why there is a problem now? Probably our "russian friends" are looking for something else than reliable transit. What exactly, time will tell!
Russia is using the right momment for this atack: cold winter, change of the president in US, weak government in Ukraine. This all is to show who is really in charge. Although Russia managed to reach the short term objective, the long term will be lost. The people, living in Eastern Ukraine and traditionally supportive of Russia, are changing their minds after this!
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - sotnyk - 01-18-2009
neutral observer Wrote:1.If Ukraine does not have money to buy the gas do not buy it - simple, or buy it less
(Anybody likes good cars but a lot of people do walk only)
2.Gas transit to Europe was paid so do not even touch it - simple, too!
(For example, somebody pays a ticket through the transit country (Ukraine) with luggage by train so this transit passenger shall be ready to loose 10-15-25% of the luggage, or not?) :banghead
to your p.1: agree fully.
to your p.2: how much was stollen? Why Russia is making judgements while this should be decision of the Stockholm court. Do not believe and re-tell to everybody the lies of the Kremlin! The reason for this war is absolutelly different.
Reply to Valentine Akishkin et al - bk - 01-18-2009
Guest Wrote:Mrs. Timoshenko has just bargained a 20% discount to what all other European countries pay for gas. .... For this lady the crisis was nothing other than the beginning of her election campaign for future presidency. ... Bearing in mind the way Mrs. Timoshenko handles things, she will not be a remedy to Europe’s energy problems....Consequently, I see the gleam in the eyes of US policy makers. Mrs. Timoshenko as next president will keep her hands tight on the throats of Europe and Russia making the reliability of Russia gas supplies to Europe vulnerable, and dependable on the upshots of the political situation in the Ukraine, which is far from being stable.
Valentine Akishkin (Russia)
M. Akishkin focus and choice of vocabulary in this and other postings is very revealing. They implicitly confirm that the crisis between Ukraine and Russia has never been about gas. Rather, it is about control. Russia tends to see anything that they cannot control as a threat. Therefore,an independent Ukraine is a threat, a free Europe is a threat, the U.S. is a threat and ultimately, freedom itself is a threat. Paradoxically, it is this Russian perception of the world which enslaves Russia itself --and, since no nation wants to be controlled by another, it makes Russia a threat to them.
From its conduct, it is clear that Russia views itself not only as an equal but superior to both Europe and the U.S. --it is nice to have self-confidence and a healty ego ---but only if they are grounded in reality. You have only to look at the sizes of their respective economies to know that Europe and certainly the U.S. do not see Russia as an economic threat but only as a potentially huge market for their own goods. That said Europe and the U.S. respect Russian accomplishments and recognise the invaluable assistance it could offer in making the world a better place. They look forward to the day that it will return that recognition and respect to them. If the postings on this and similar forums in any way represent the thinking of average Russians then it is clear that that day is still a long way off. For the immediate moment, Europeans do not care about Russias respect: they want only to hear the hiss of gas flowing into their factories, power plants, heaters and stoves. Ukrainians want to hear more.
In terms of the current agreement, we still do not have an answer to the most important question, namely, whether RusUkrEnergo will continue to exist. If not, then Europe can expect similar crises in the future. But if RusUkrEnergo is eliminated (and its current independent contracts in Ukraine voided) then Russia will have lost a major source of its corruptive and destabilizing hold on Ukrainian politics. This is not just rhetoric: according to Transparency International Russia is not only more internally corrupt than Ukraine but it is a leading national exporter of corruption. Without RusUkrEnergo and similar shadowy intermediaries, Ukraine will be able more quickly move forward with European integration and should Russia want to use gas as a blunt club to further its own goals in the future, it will not be able to hide hehind Ukraine's skirts.
BK, Associate Professor of International Law
Re: Please put Your attention on love to human in gas war! - Ukrainian - 01-18-2009
we have own gas in Ukraine here too,in the time ag Soviet Union Ukraine was the source of all gas for it,before they find it in Siberia and it becomes less in here and ,also we were prepared to this war and saved the gas for which we had paid to russia untill the last month of 2008.Please don't spread the lie of Russian monopoly says.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Ukrainian - 01-18-2009
we have own gas in Ukraine here too,in the time ag Soviet Union Ukraine was the source of all gas for Soviet Union,before they find it in Siberia and it becomes less in here and ,also we were prepared to this war and saved the gas for which we had paid to russia untill the last month of 2008.Please don't spread the lie of Russian monopoly or politics says!Respect Ukrainian people and Ukrane.
Re: Ukraine wants $US 700 million worth of gas to resume transit - Ukrainian - 01-18-2009
there is technological question:when they cut off the gas on the 1st of January ukrainian"Naftogas"was waiting for two hours,sending our own gas to Europe,and when the position of "Gasprom"becomes clear,they made the operation so called"revers"which means that they turned our gas sistem from transit to provide gas for our own needs for all ukraine:from east to west and they need to turn all pressure on the opposite way in order the our own gasfrom our own storages(we have own gas in Ukraine here too,in the time ag Soviet Union Ukraine was the source of all gas for it,before they find it in Siberia and it becomes less in here and ,also we were prepared to this war and saved the gas for which we had paid to russia untill the last month of 2008)when Russia sent some amount of gas for europe it is simply not possible to turn gas transport sistem for transit again with that pressure,and to put this sistem to "avers"instead of "revers",it is necessary that all sistem would return to ordinary prosidure for to satisfy transit and a the same time to work for inner needs for ukraine too.
in this situation Ukrainian Goverment had to choose beetwen Ukrainian people or to sacrifice them in the name of any country of Europe,the same as any country of europe woudn't sicrifice their people for sake of ukraine.
Theposition is that Ukraine owns it transit gas sistem and not going to give it to own someone else.So this comes to explanation why there is "information war"and lies they say against ukraine,the same as gas war of "Gasprom" and Russia.
.Please don't spread the lie of Russian monopoly or politics says.
Respect UKRAINIAN PEOPLE and Ukraine!
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Leonid - 01-18-2009
Ok,
To avoid lots of word:
Russia is a monopolist of gas supplies to Ukraine (75% you've mentioned).
Russia is not a monopolist of gas supplies to Europe (25% as I said).
Ukraine is a monopolist of gas transit to Europe (80%).
The next point is Ukraine did and does have unpaid bills (negotiations were started in October-November, there was time to pay)- supplies were cut off at all. No money no new contract. It's funny that Ukraine was proposed 250USD gas price but refused. Now it has 370USD.
It's not truth that fact of siphoning is not justified. Slovakia and some other states had registered reducing of transit gaz amounts. Furthermore Naftogaz oficial Mr.Dubina has confirmed this.
If Ukraine does not want to make gas transit business Russia will find solutions. It's for sure.
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - muschamp - 01-18-2009
I had a bad woman once she nearly killed me, but I loved every minute of it. To bad that Yushenko's wife is an American, in my view that makes it a certainty, he will die from it. I know them quite well. If Mrs Timoshenko can squeeze a 20% discount out of Gas prom, then she is worth her salary. If it earns her the presidency of Ukraine, and a pension then it is even better, every one is looking for promotion this is business. Whats there to hate.
I have seen workers on strike before, to get better conditions, if you have settled your trade dispute then you have learned a little more about the west, and what to expect when you try to join. Membership of the EU should be a good thing, and it is when you don't have anything of value. In Ukraine's case that is not so. Membership of the EU means that you have to fight or have enemies with dangerous technology's on or around your country that has no other purpose except to kill you.
These considerations regarding the quality of life out way the benefits of EU membership. The Americans bring death with them, they are looking for a profit too. Chasing Ukraine for friendship is not for Ukraine's benefit. They are involved in on finished business with Russia.
People don't pick presidents circumstances decides who wins at elections, I have seen a lot. There is no money in it. No country has a monopoly on corruption or morality, and every one is the same. We are all trying to make money, and control something.
If I was a politician from Ukraine I would go and find myself a Russian woman to marry to get myself another 10% discount in gas, that way they cant cut supplies, this is a business. What does not pay I cannot use.
Freedom and democracy is an empty set of words, with globalization the way it is. When one country such as Russia stops working all others down the chain stops as well. You can also start somewhere in the middle of the chain or with Ukraine, the result is exactly the same recession. Politicians have no leverage and are helpless in the face of it.
Learn to corporate for mutual benefit. The alternative is to start fighting wars all over the place, instead of earning money to by goods, that is how the US make's it's money.
You used to rely on each other why are you at each others throats now, the answer is that you both are under attack for what you have got, you cannot see it yet. The winner of this dispute should be your bank accounts.
Re: It was never the money! - BK - 01-19-2009
IF the deal is signed today then, based on current information:
1. Ukraine will likely pay an overall average of between $201 and $220 for gas in 2009 which is less that the $250 fixed price which Russia originally wanted or the $235 which Ukraine ultimately offered to pay just before Russia turned the gas off.
2. RosUrkEnergo, the corrupt intermediary will not be used which, aside from reducing a major source of corruption, means that ordinary Ukrainians will actually pay significantly less for gas this year. (Last year, RosUrkEnergo added commissions and other fees which increased the actual price of gas to about $320)
3. Russia currently pays about $3 billion a year for transit. Russia will begin paying transit fees at the market rate in 2010 (a year earlier) which is expected to more than double the current rate.
4. In 2010 Ukraine will begin paying "European" rates based on the prices that Russia actually charges its EU customers --i.e., less than the market value.
There is no word on whether Russia has waived the fines for late payments that it is demanding or if Ukraine will pay for the transit gas it used during the first six days of January. It is a safe (but not certain) assumption that these were factored into the present agreement and are no longer an issue.
It is clear from the results of the negotiations that money was never the real issue. So what was so important that both Russia and Ukraine not only severly damaged their reputations with Europe but are facing huge lawsuits? We may never know. We do know one thing: they have awakened a sleeping Europe and it is very likely that U.S. will lift its embargo on Iran's gas meaning that in three to five years time, Russia and Ukraine will have lost most of their captive European market.
Perhaps Europe eventually will be grateful for this gas war. The U.S. is certainly happy. The only real losers are Russia and Ukraine.
Re: It was Never About the Money! - BK - 01-19-2009
IF the deal is signed today then it confirms what I have been arguing : the dispute was never really about money. Based on current information:
1. For this year Ukraine will likely pay an overall average of between $201 and $220 for gas which is less that the $250 fixed price which Russia originally wanted or the $235 which Ukraine ultimately offered to pay just before Russia turned the gas off.
2. RosUrkEnergo, the corrupt intermediary will not be used which, aside from reducing a major source of corruption, means that ordinary Ukrainians will actually pay significantly less for gas this year. (Last year, RosUrkEnergo added commissions and other fees which increased the actual price of gas to about $320: no one knows for sure where this money (over a billion dollars) went, not even Gazprom which owns 50% of RosUrkEnergo.)
3. Russia currently pays about $3 billion a year for transit. Russia will begin paying transit fees at the market rate in 2010 (a year earlier) or, in simple terms, $6 Billion a year (Russia has been charging less than half the market rate for transit, a fact overlooked by many on this forum)
4. In 2010 Ukraine will begin paying "European" rates based on the prices that Russia actually charges its EU customers --i.e., less than the market value since Russia uses "preferred customer pricing."
5. Outstanding debts: There is no word on whether Russia has waived the fines for late payments that it is demanding or if Ukraine will pay for the transit gas it used during the first week of January. It is a safe (but not certain) assumption that these were factored into the present agreement and are no longer an issue.
In sum, it is clear from the results of the negotiations that money was never the real issue, at least for Russia. So what was so important that both Russia and Ukraine not only severly damaged their reputations with Europe but are facing huge lawsuits? We may never really know.
We do know one thing: Russia and Ukraine have awakened a sleeping Europe. It is now very likely that they will pressure the U.S. to lift its embargo on Iran's gas. Iran has enough gas to flood the market. If so, then the price of gas will remain low and in three to five years time, Russia and Ukraine will have lost most of their captive European market.
Perhaps Europe eventually will be grateful for this gas war. The U.S. is certainly happy: they have been warning Europe that this might happen for years. So the only real losers are Russia and Ukraine. Who lost more? Only time will tell.
BK
Does Rusia want to join the EU? - Hmmm - 01-19-2009
From the number of Russians on this site I have to wonder, Do Russians want to join the EU? That would be a solution to a lot of problems! NATO could then be transformed into an effective UN Peacekeeping and Anti-Terrorism force. Combine this with an agreement by member countries to stop selling weapons to non-member countries and we actually have a viable platform for world peace -or at least something close to it. And we could transform our respective military-industrial complexes into something more useful, say, energy research, basic science and space explorarion? Doesn't seem possible? Ask yourself, Why not?
Re: It was Never About the Money! - Pete - 01-19-2009
BK Wrote:IF the deal is signed today then it confirms what I have been arguing : the dispute was never really about money. Based on current information:I wonder who provides you with such information.
1. For this year Ukraine will likely pay an overall average of between $201 and $220 for gas which is less that the $250 fixed price which Russia originally wanted or the $235 which Ukraine ultimately offered to pay just before Russia turned the gas off.
Last thing that was agreed yesterday evening was EU price (450$) minus 20% (discount) i.e. approximately 360$.
Of course, their president can recall this deal again, proving that they aren't eligible for negotiations, but if he doesn't then the crisis is over I suppose.
Quote:3. Russia currently pays about $3 billion a year for transit. Russia will begin paying transit fees at the market rate in 2010 (a year earlier) or, in simple terms, $6 Billion a year (Russia has been charging less than half the market rate for transit, a fact overlooked by many on this forum)It couldn't really be overlooked, since it was so often underlined by western media, however what was really overlooked are next 2 interdependent facts:
1) during all its "independence" Ukraine was paying for gas WAY (3-5 times) less than most other countries (except Belorus and Armenia sponsored by Russia);
2) it's Ukraine who will have to pay more when switching to "EU-gas price - EU transit price" scheme. That's why they were resisting so desperately.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - sektor_Gaza - 01-19-2009
:deg the Great Loser in the gas conflict is Pan Yuschenko the Dummie
hock:
Re: Ukraine blocks gas after Russia turns taps on - sektor_Gaza - 01-19-2009
To my mind Pan Yuschenko is sick-minded. He likes to suffer and he wants to Ukraine to suffer. His ideas are fascist and he is full of hatred. Somebody dial 03 for a doctor for the president! :-)
Re: Does Rusia want to join the EU? - sektor_Gaza - 01-19-2009
Hmmm Wrote:From the number of Russians on this site I have to wonder, Do Russians want to join the EU? That would be a solution to a lot of problems! NATO could then be transformed into an effective UN Peacekeeping and Anti-Terrorism force. Combine this with an agreement by member countries to stop selling weapons to non-member countries and we actually have a viable platform for world peace -or at least something close to it. And we could transform our respective military-industrial complexes into something more useful, say, energy research, basic science and space explorarion? Doesn't seem possible? Ask yourself, Why not?
My friend, your good idea is a nightmare for the USA. It used to supervise EU and would never allow others to joint which could contest its mission.
Re: To a better world - Ukrainian - 01-19-2009
Please, don’t discuss or start here false and wrong topics like ”Ukraine wants 700 mln $…”.Ukraine had never said that ,the Head of Russian” Gasprom” said it. There is technological issue about the necessary amount of gas which makes possible transit if gas itself…The issue which can be discussed by specialists only.
Don’t You remember what ideas for great Russians like Solzenitzin, Saharov, Shostakovitch ,Politkovskaya and others didn’t appreciate their own lives ?for freedom, for humanity ,for peace….Don’t You feel shame for what people write in here? Are You thinking about “moral violence”? Don’t put “bombs” in that war for Your sake! It is dangerous situation :we, Ukrainian people ,may become to be tired to faith ,if You press on us we gill give up and choose for next President the one who will obey to Russia, we don’t have too much variants of democracy in here, we have party in opposition, which was officially supported by Russia before Orange Revolution. Do You really believe that Ukraine is a machine for transit of Russian gas to Europe? And when it is not working You would call for “auto service”? No ,it is not ,there is people lives, people rights to live in free country, in safe country ,human rights ,the same for EVERY HUMAN ON THE EARTH !and when people discuss here the example like”…if Ukraine have no money to buy “Cadillac” or “Lincoln” ,Ukraine has not to buy”….no it is -10-20 degree below zero of cold in the winter is normal in here and if we pay any price which is offered to us, then our people and factories would be below the line of poverty…or will look for our own sources of heat, and in this case, to use our gas system for our own needs. Does anybody care about UKRAINIAN PEOPLE<NOT gas conflict? Think about simple issues as if in Your family ,in YOUR OWN country: will You survive if Your business partner wants to capture Your property, that has happened with transport gas system of Byelorussia, will You survive if there is enemy inside who betrays You in Your own family ,will You survive if Your neighbors look at You as at the reason of their troubles ?Discuss real simple matters….if we will sacrifice our human rights to be Ukraine ,not a part of Russian political system ,rights for respect of our work ,if theoretically there is the corrupting company would exist which related with Russian gas ,there should be a criminal case against this company, without mention people of Ukraine, our rights ,our country.If WE will not exist as a country,one day You may discover Russian gas Company cuts gas to You and there is no Ukraine to blame….Will You call for “Auto service”?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Ukrainian - 01-19-2009
Please, don’t discuss or start here false and wrong topics like ”Ukraine wants 700 mln$…”.Ukraine had never said that ,the Head of Russian” Gasprom” said it. There is technological issue about the necessary amount of gas which makes possible transit if gas itself…The issue which can be discussed by specialists only.
Don’t You remember what ideas for great Russians like Solzenitzin, Saharov, Shostakovitch ,Politkovskaya and others didn’t appreciate their own lives ?for freedom, for humanity ,for peace….Don’t You feel shame for what people write in here? Are You thinking about “moral violence”? Don’t put “bombs” in that war for Your sake! It is dangerous situation :we, Ukrainian people ,may become to be tired to faith ,if You press on us we gill give up and choose for next President the one who will obey to Russia, we don’t have too much variants of democracy in here, we have party in opposition, which was officially supported by Russia before Orange Revolution. Do You really believe that Ukraine is a machine for transit of Russian gas to Europe? And when it is not working You would call for “auto service”? No ,it is not ,there is people lives, people rights to live in free country, in safe country ,human rights ,the same for EVERY HUMAN ON THE EARTH !and when people discuss here the example like”…if Ukraine have no money to buy “Cadillac” or “Lincoln” ,Ukraine has not to buy”….no it is -10-20 degree below zero of cold in the winter is normal in here and if we pay any price which is offered to us, then our people and factories would be below the line of poverty…or will look for our own sources of heat, and in this case, to use our gas system for our own needs. Does anybody care about UKRAINIAN PEOPLE<NOT gas conflict? Think about simple issues as if in Your family ,in YOUR OWN country: will You survive if Your business partner wants to capture Your property, that has happened with transport gas system of Byelorussia, will You survive if there is enemy inside who betrays You in Your own family ,will You survive if Your neighbors look at You as at the reason of their troubles ?Discuss real simple matters….if we will sacrifice our human rights to be Ukraine ,not a part of Russian political system ,rights for respect of our work ,if theoretically there is the corrupting company would exist which related with Russian gas ,there should be a criminal case against this company, without mention people of Ukraine, our rights ,our country.If WE will not exist as a country,one day You may discover Russian gas Company cuts gas to You and there is no Ukraine to blame….Will You call for “Auto service”?
Re: Ukraine wants $US 700 million worth of gas to resume transit - Ukrainian - 01-19-2009
Please, don’t discuss or start here false and wrong topics like ”Ukraine wants…”.Ukraine had never said that ,the Head of Russian” Gasprom” said it. There is technological issue about the necessary amount of gas which makes possible transit if gas itself…The issue which can be discussed by specialists only.
Don’t You remember what ideas for great Russians like Solzenitzin, Saharov, Shostakovitch ,Politkovskaya and others didn’t appreciate their own lives ?for freedom, for humanity ,for peace….
Don’t You feel shame for what people write in here? Are You thinking about “moral violence”? Don’t put “bombs” in that war for Your sake! It is dangerous situation :we, Ukrainian people ,may become to be tired to faith ,if You press on us we gill give up and choose for next President the one who will obey to Russia, we don’t have too much variants of democracy in here, we have party in opposition, which was officially supported by Russia before Orange Revolution.
Do You really believe that Ukraine is a machine for transit of Russian gas to Europe? And when it is not working You would call for “auto service”? No ,it is not ,there is people lives, people rights to live in free country, in safe country ,human rights ,the same for EVERY HUMAN ON THE EARTH !and when people discuss here the example like”…if Ukraine have no money to buy “Cadillac” or “Lincoln” ,Ukraine has not to buy”….no it is -10-20 degree below zero of cold in the winter is normal in here and if we pay any price which is offered to us, then our people and factories would be below the line of poverty…or will look for our own sources of heat, and in this case, to use our gas system for our own needs.
Does anybody care about UKRAINIAN PEOPLE<NOT gas conflict? Think about simple issues as if in Your family ,in YOUR OWN country: will You survive if Your business partner wants to capture Your property, that has happened with transport gas system of Byelorussia, will You survive if there is enemy inside who betrays You in Your own family ,will You survive if Your neighbors look at You as at the reason of their troubles ?
Discuss real simple matters….if we will sacrifice our human rights to be Ukraine ,not a part of Russian political system ,rights for respect of our work ,if theoretically there is the corrupting company would exist which related with Russian gas ,there should be a criminal case against this company, without mention people of Ukraine, our rights ,our country.If WE will not exist as a country,one day You may discover Russian gas Company cuts gas to You and there is no Ukraine to blame….Will You call for “Auto service”?
Re: To a better world - Kusnetsov - 01-19-2009
Judging by the last two messages the way to a better world is postponed for uncertain time.
Re: Ukraine said: We can give gas, but... - Ukrainian - 01-19-2009
Please, don’t discuss or start here false and wrong topics like ”Ukraine wants…”.Ukraine had never said that ,the Head of Russian” Gasprom” said it. There is technological issue about the necessary amount of gas which makes possible transit if gas itself…The issue which can be discussed by specialists only.
Don’t You remember what ideas for great Russians like Solzenitzin, Saharov, Shostakovitch ,Politkovskaya and others didn’t appreciate their own lives ?for freedom, for humanity ,for peace….
Don’t You feel shame for what people write in here? Are You thinking about “moral violence”? Don’t put “bombs” in that war for Your sake! It is dangerous situation :we, Ukrainian people ,may become to be tired to faith ,if You press on us we gill give up and choose for next President the one who will obey to Russia, we don’t have too much variants of democracy in here, we have party in opposition, which was officially supported by Russia before Orange Revolution.
Do You really believe that Ukraine is a machine for transit of Russian gas to Europe? And when it is not working You would call for “auto service”? No ,it is not ,there is people lives, people rights to live in free country, in safe country ,human rights ,the same for EVERY HUMAN ON THE EARTH !and when people discuss here the example like”…if Ukraine have no money to buy “Cadillac” or “Lincoln” ,Ukraine has not to buy”….no it is -10-20 degree below zero of cold in the winter is normal in here and if we pay any price which is offered to us, then our people and factories would be below the line of poverty…or will look for our own sources of heat, and in this case, to use our gas system for our own needs.
Does anybody care about UKRAINIAN PEOPLE<NOT gas conflict? Think about simple issues as if in Your family ,in YOUR OWN country: will You survive if Your business partner wants to capture Your property, that has happened with transport gas system of Byelorussia, will You survive if there is enemy inside who betrays You in Your own family ,will You survive if Your neighbors look at You as at the reason of their troubles ?Discuss real simple matters….if we will sacrifice our human rights to be Ukraine ,not a part of Russian political system ,rights for respect of our work ,if theoretically there is the corrupting company would exist which related with Russian gas ,there should be a criminal case against this company, without mention people of Ukraine, our rights ,our country.If WE will not exist as a country,one day You may discover Russian gas Company cuts gas to You and there is no Ukraine to blame….Will You call for “Auto service”?