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Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-29-2008
That is great, georgians changed nationality becouse it was more proffitable to be Abkchaz than georgian? :lol: :lol: :lol: . Are you kidding? What complete picture you are talking about?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
Georgia: Satellite Images Show Destruction, Ethnic Attacks
Russia Should Investigate, Prosecute Crimes
( New York , August 29, 2008) – Recent satellite images released by the UN program UNOSAT confirm the widespread torching of ethnic Georgian villages inside South Ossetia , Human Rights Watch said today. Detailed analysis of the damage depicted in five ethnic Georgian villages shows the destruction of these villages around the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, was caused by intentional burning and not armed combat.
All of this adds up to compelling evidence of war crimes and grave human rights abuses. This should persuade the Russian government it needs to prosecute those responsible for these crimes.
Rachel Denber, deputy director of the Europe and Central Asia division of Human Rights Watch
Related Material
EU: Protect Civilians in Gori District
Press Release
Burning and Looting of Ethnic Georgian Villages in South Ossetia
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Conflict in Georgia
Special Focus
Q & A: Violence in South Ossetia
Questions and Answers, August 8, 2008
Law on Occupation and Effective Control
Questions and Answers
More of Human Rights Watch's work on Georgia
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Georgian Villages in South Ossetia Burnt, Looted
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“Human Rights Watch researchers personally witnessed Ossetian militias looting and burning down ethnic Georgian villages during their research in the area,” said Rachel Denber, deputy director of the Europe and Central Asia division of Human Rights Watch. “These satellite images indicate just how widespread the torching of these villages has been in the last two weeks.”
The new satellite images, taken by a commercial satellite on August 19, were analyzed by experts of the Geneva-based UNOSAT program, which is part of the UN Institute for Training and Research and produces satellite-derived mapping in support of UN agencies and the international humanitarian community. UNOSAT experts identified visible structures on the images that were likely to have been either destroyed or severely damaged. The expert analysis indicates clear patterns of destruction that are consistent with the evidence gathered by Human Rights Watch researchers working in the region.
Among the images publicly available from the UNOSAT website (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/">http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/</a><!-- m -->) is a map marking satellite-detected active fire locations in the ethnic Georgian villages around Tskhinvali. The map shows active fires in the ethnic Georgian villages on August 10, 12, 13, 17, 19 and 22, well after active hostilities ended in the area on August 10. On these dates the lack of cloud cover allowed the satellites to view those locations.
Fires by date (high resolution, 3.3MB)
Fires by date (low resolution, 1.6MB)
UNOSAT has also released a set of six high-resolution satellite images of the enclave of ethnic Georgian villages stretching nine kilometers north from Tskhinvali, showing that the majority of them have been destroyed.
Destroyed ethnic Georgian villages (high resolution, 26.7MB)
Destroyed ethnic Georgian villages (low resolution, 8.5MB)
The images strongly indicate that the majority of the destruction in five of the villages – Tamarasheni, Kekhvi, Kvemo Achabeti (Nizhnie Achaveti in Russian), Zemo Achabeti (Verkhnie Achaveti in Russian), and Kurta – was caused by intentional burning. The high-resolution images of these villages show no impact craters from incoming shelling or rocket fire, or aerial bombardment. The exterior and interior masonry walls of most of the destroyed homes are still standing, but the wood-framed roofs are collapsed, indicating that the buildings were burned. Only along the main road through Tamarasheni are a number of homes visible with collapsed exterior walls, which may have been caused by tank fire. Ethnic Georgian witnesses from Tamarasheni told Human Rights Watch that they had witnessed Russian tanks systematically firing into the homes on August 10.
Detailed satellite images of destroyed ethnic Georgian villages (10.2MB)
On August 12, Human Rights Watch researchers witnessed massive looting by Ossetian militias in Tamarasheni, as well as in the neighboring ethnic Georgian villages. Human Rights Watch researchers saw and photographed the still-smoldering and the recently torched houses in Tamarasheni. Witnesses from local villagers in Tamarasheni, Kvemo Achabeti, and Kekhvi told Human Rights Watch that Ossetian militias were systematically looting and burning ethnic Georgian homes. In the village of Kekhvi , many homes had been set alight by Ossetian militias just before the arrival of Human Rights Watch researchers, who photographed the burning homes.
Human Rights Watch photo essay, "Burning and Looting of Ethnic Georgian Villages in South Ossetia"http://www.hrw.org/photos/2008/georgia0808/
Human Rights Watch researchers spoke with several members of the Ossetian militias who openly admitted that the houses were being burned by their associates, explaining that the objective was to ensure that ethnic Georgians would not have the houses to return to.
“All of this adds up to compelling evidence of war crimes and grave human rights abuses,” said Denber. “This should persuade the Russian government it needs to prosecute those responsible for these crimes.”
The damage shown in the ethnic Georgian villages is massive and concentrated. In Tamarasheni, UNOSAT’s experts counted a total of 177 buildings destroyed or severely damaged, accounting for almost all of the buildings in the town. In Kvemo Achabeti, there are 87 destroyed and 28 severely damaged buildings (115 total); in Zemo Achabeti, 56 destroyed and 21 severely damaged buildings (77 total); in Kurta, 123 destroyed and 21 severely damaged buildings (144 total); in Kekhvi, 109 destroyed and 44 severely damaged buildings (153 total); in Kemerti, 58 destroyed and 20 severely damaged buildings (78 total); and in Dzartsemi, 29 destroyed and 10 severely damaged buildings (39 total).
Selected Accounts from Ethnic Georgian Residents
“[The Ossetians] had cars outside and first looted everything they liked. Then they brought hay, put it in the house and ignited it. The house was burned in front of my eyes.”
– Zhuzhuna Chulukhidze, 76, resident of Zemo Achabeti
“I was beaten and my house was looted by Ossetian militias three times during a single day. After they took everything and there was nothing more to loot, they brought petrol, poured it everywhere in the rooms and outside the house, and then put it on fire. They made me watch as my house was fully burned.”
– Ila Chulukhadze, 84, resident of Kvemo Achabeti
“They [Ossetians] came several times to my house and took everything they liked. Once there was nothing else to take, they poured petrol and put it on fire. I watched how they burned my house as well as my neighbors’ houses.”
– Rezo Babutsidze, 80, resident of Kvemo Achabeti
“Ossetians first took out everything they could from my house. Then they brought hay, put it in the house and put it on fire. They did not allow us to take even our documents. I saw how my house was completely burnt.”
– Tamar Khutsinashvili, 69, resident of Tamarasheni
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-29-2008
1)Chena, I can't tell you anyting about what you wants. I can tell you that about 200000 abkhazes was leaved out in Turkey from Abkhazia. Maybe, this do you mean as profitable to be an abkhaze????
2) Yalta1945, do you understand what did you wright? It was quote, and I see, you in general can't nothing understand! So, I pity you... Shut up, and don't wright foolish posts...It will help you, I think....
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
SiD Wrote:That is great, georgians changed nationality becouse it was more proffitable to be Abkchaz than georgian? :lol: :lol: :lol: . Are you kidding? What complete picture you are talking about?
It was not about being profitable, during soviet times there were hundrends of way to make people do whatever KGB or Soviet Goverment wanted (if you know what I am talking about: partiinoe "poruchenie"). But doing this Soviets "increased" nomilal number of abkhazs. They knew what they were doing...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
chena Wrote:Human Rights Watch
Is this Guantanamo sub-division ?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-29-2008
There are dangerous ongoing activities in the region. Any historical discussions are out of the list of the most urgent problems at the moment.
This looks like indications of the ongoing implementation of the annexation plan:
South Ossetia's parliamentary speaker Znaur Gassiyev said Russia would absorb the region within "several years", according to a report by the Associated Press.
Interfax quoted Abkhazia's foreign minister, Sergei Shamba, as saying his province "may become part of the Union State of Russia and Belarus".
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7587598.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7587598.stm</a><!-- m -->
People are still in a big danger despite all Kremlin’s promises made recently to the EU and the rest of the world. This is a must reading:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm">http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08 ... i19712.htm</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-29-2008
independent Wrote:Is this cynicism a sign of your in-dependency?chena Wrote:Human Rights Watch
Is this Guantanamo sub-division ?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
Giovane Wrote:1)Chena, I can't tell you anyting about what you wants. I can tell you that about 200000 abkhazes was leaved out in Turkey from Abkhazia. Maybe, this do you mean as profitable to be an abkhaze????
2) Yalta1945, do you understand what did you wright? It was quote, and I see, you in general can't nothing understand! So, I pity you... Shut up, and don't wright foolish posts...It will help you, I think....
Giovani/Vania (or maybe mr. Churkin?)
Of course you can't tell me anything about what I want (I don't need that)...but this is not the case we should discuss on this forum. The thing I asked you is to provide complete or accurate facts about the history of Georgian-Russian relationships instead of nonsense you are writing.
Have you ever thought that there could be other reasons (except Georgian violence) for Lazis/abkhaz and other Georgian ethnicities living in Turkey? Think and you will be amazed!
But let’s discuss some of the issues raised on this forum I am not going to convince anybody but just expect accurate arguments not the extracts from Mr. Churkins speech (read bullsheet) if it is ok for you :
Genocide:
Georgia has proven itself for last couple thousand years as a tolerant to different ethnicities. Please, list the cities in Russia or elsewhere where for hundred years on less than 1sq.km perimeter there are an Orthodox, Armenian and Catholic churches, Synagogue and a Muslim Mechet. Georgians have been leaving peacefully with more than 30 nationalities on their territory for centuries. Georgia is one of the rarest countries in Eurasia where Jewish people has been welcomed and never repressed (at least on governmental level) for more than 2000 years.
Russia on the other hand has a history of ethnical violence (“evreiskie razgromi” i. t.d.). One of the most influential parties is LDP, neo-fascist organization with the leader who is either kloun or dictator in disguise. Let me remind you Mr. Rogozin’s words “We will clean the dirt” – dirt are representatives of different nationalities, guest-arbaiters. Ironically, Mr. Rogozin is the representative of RF in OSCE. During recent years the number of skin-heads has been dramatically increasing which resulted in increased numbers of ethnic murders (Georgians, Armenians, Azeris, Abkhaz, Ossetians, Kyrgyz, Polish and so on). Not saying anything about tens of thousands Chechen civilians killed during so called Chechen war.
So, country R (with not exactly “clean” background) accuses country G (with comparatively clean background and comparatively only because nothing is perfect) in ethnic genocide. This is not taking into considerations military advantage of country R and all international reports regarding this issue.
Don’t you think that something is wrong with your equation?
Slogan: Georgia for Georgia
Some of you mentioned slogan of former president Gamsakhurdia “Georgia for Georgians” forgetting to mention what led him to it Russian militaries and politicians slogan “Georgia without Georgians”
Trustworthiness
According to you we should completely trust Country R when it accuses Country G in military aggression, genocide and threat for its security while (these are just few facts)
• Counry R is hundred times bigger (at least army) than Country G. It is very interesting how Georgia could be a threat to Russia when it size of one of the districts in Moscow.
• in 1801 Country R ignored and violated agreement with Country G and annexed it, instead of cooperation and support. Moreover, according to some historical documents ambassador of Country R paid 30000 to Aga Mohamed Han to destroy Georgia. Interesting enough is the fact that Ossetians and Russians are using the same techniques (of Aga Mohamed Han) )in 21st century, i.e. burning forests, villages and gardens in those villages…after killing or displacing the whole population.
• Soon after 1801 Russian Orthodox church annexed Georgian church despite the fact that Georgian one was one of the first independent churches since 4th century (Russia was introduced to Christianity in centuries later, actually Ukraine became Christian in 10th century). Moreover, Georgian churches have been over-painted and unique Georgian and Byzantine frescos have been destroyed.
• In 1921 country R annexed country G one more time. To strengthen its power and weaken Georgians Bolsheviks created (artificially, not based on any historical justification) two autonomous republics: Abkhazia and Adjara, and one district: South Ossetia. All of them are historical parts of Georgian and have been for centuries, name South Ossetia did not exist up to 1921, for centuries it has been called Samachablo (in Georgian it is Land of Machabeli). Not to mention the fact that territories of Georgia has been given like a presents to Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia and, finally, Russia (Sochi!) by bolsheviks.
FYI, first Ossetians were moved to Georgian in 11th century as a additional military force for David Agmashenebeli. The existence of two Ossetias is not geographically justified (just look on the map). And one more question, why is it that South Ossetia is independent and North Ossetia is a part of Russia? Is not it logical to reunite two parts of divided nation and make on independent country Ossetia? FREEDOM TO NORTH OSSETIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VIVA TO OSSETIA!!!!!!!!!!!!
• Since 1994-2008 Country R has been violating all agreements (Dagomis agreement is one of them). According to the agreement Russian peacekeepers have no right to (1) be involved in any kind of conflict between Georgia, Abkhazia and Ossetia; (2) have heavy military forces like tanks, planes and so on. Look at Poti port tanks of Russian peacekeepers are still there despite
• 2008 Russian, French and Georgian presidents signed the cease-fire agreement. The agreement has 6 main points. Russia has violated the agreement immediately.
So, you tell me that I should trust Country R when its president’s or tsar’s signatures are not worth even a dime? I should trust the country where the actual president is called Prime minister and nominal president is a guard for Putin’s office (I guess he’s making sure that nobody will enter it)?
Something doesn’t seem right here too, does it?
Should I continue and add some more information about Baltic Countries, Finland, Hungary, Japan, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Moldova, Ukraine, Azerbaijan and many, many others?
This time I am not providing the information about the history of Abkhazia and so called South Ossetia regions.
FYI, the word "pisat" is write not wright
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-29-2008
Chena, today was press-confererence of Thomas Hammarberg (it's a commissar of EU at human rights). And he said that Human Rights Watch ( You refer on this organisation ) understared osetian victims....
And also why don't you want ot post Ossetian indication about as georgian troops threw grenade in basement where had been peace people ???? Or why don't you want to show the video where gergians killed peace man take it
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F_3xOSVazo&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F_3xOSV ... re=related</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
Giovanni/Vania,
Just wanted to give you the hint regarding your question about Abkhazs living in Turkey, check the chronics of 19th century Russia, how Russians kicked out ethnic Abkhazs…
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
Yalta1945 Wrote:independent Wrote:Is this cynicism a sign of your in-dependency?chena Wrote:Human Rights Watch
Is this Guantanamo sub-division ?
I commonly dislike organications who make conclusions without evidences.
And Guantanamo and Human Rights Watch are both too willing to do so.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-29-2008
chena Wrote:Giovanni/Vania,
Just wanted to give you the hint regarding your question about Abkhazs living in Turkey, check the chronics of 19th century Russia, how Russians kicked out ethnic Abkhazs…
Yes you're are right, but
"...На место выселенных абхазов российское правительство переселяло выходцев из различных уголков империи и иностранцев: русских, греков, армян, эстонцев, украинцев, молдаван, немцев и других. Однако наибольшее количество переселенцев приходилось на выходцев из Грузии, в первую очередь мегрелов. Таким образом, к началу XX века неассимилированное абхазское население компактно проживало только в двух, территориально не связанных между собой провинциях – Бзыпе и Абжуа..."
I try to translate fo foreign interlocutors:
"....The territories, clered from abkhazies, by Russian Empire government was occupied by Russians, Greks,Armenians, Estonians, Ukraines, Moldovans, Germans and others. But the most quontity of settlers were migrants from Georgia (MERGELS). In the result native abkhazian people lived only in 2 provinces-are Bzipa and Abzhua"
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
check this
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://olegpanfilov2.livejournal.com/13426.html">http://olegpanfilov2.livejournal.com/13426.html</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-29-2008
Dear Chena, why did you keep silence about short Georgianan perion when this country was independet ( I mean 1918-1921) And about period of Zhardania government??? If you have started to write short georgian history, pls write about this period. And write about his tandent expedition in S. Ossetia. Ok?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
Is this Guantanamo sub-division ?[/quote]
Is this cynicism a sign of your in-dependency?[/quote]
I commonly dislike organications who make conclusions without evidences.
And Guantanamo and Human Rights Watch are both too willing to do so.[/quote]
Independent (from logic and any common sense?)
1. There is an evidence and if you try hard will find it. To make it easier go to <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/">http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/</a><!-- m -->
Also, below is a recent article from the Human Rights Watch website, and here is the link.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm">http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08 ... i19712.htm</a><!-- m -->
2. Is the cynicism your only argument? maybe it's better idea to show off something else
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-29-2008
Giovane Wrote:Shut up, and don't wright foolish posts...It will help you, I think....Vzaimno. Wish you are always content with getting back the fruits of your seeds.
But what does this kind of an argument prove? Rudeness is is rudeness. Trying to block opponents this way?
The thing that I did care of is that people like you may be driving Russian tanks in Georgia while we make our less or more polite discussions here.
BTW, that post was a reply to the point of the text that you cited. I do not think it was my fault you could not see the meanning.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
Giovane Wrote:So did I get it right, you admitt that it was Russian kicking out Abkhazians not Georgians?!chena Wrote:Giovanni/Vania,
Just wanted to give you the hint regarding your question about Abkhazs living in Turkey, check the chronics of 19th century Russia, how Russians kicked out ethnic Abkhazs…
Yes you're are right, but
"...На место выселенных абхазов российское правительство переселяло выходцев из различных уголков империи и иностранцев: русских, греков, армян, эстонцев, украинцев, молдаван, немцев и других. Однако наибольшее количество переселенцев приходилось на выходцев из Грузии, в первую очередь мегрелов. Таким образом, к началу XX века неассимилированное абхазское население компактно проживало только в двух, территориально не связанных между собой провинциях – Бзыпе и Абжуа..."
I try to translate fo foreign interlocutors:
"....The territories, clered from abkhazies, by Russian Empire government was occupied by Russians, Greks,Armenians, Estonians, Ukraines, Moldovans, Germans and others. But the most quontity of settlers were migrants from Georgia (MERGELS). In the result native abkhazian people lived only in 2 provinces-are Bzipa and Abzhua"
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
Giovane Wrote:Dear Chena, why did you keep silence about short Georgianan perion when this country was independet ( I mean 1918-1921) And about period of Zhardania government??? If you have started to write short georgian history, pls write about this period. And write about his tandent expedition in S. Ossetia. Ok?
tell me more your version is always so much intereting than the truth
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-29-2008
Yalta1945 Wrote:Giovane Wrote:Shut up, and don't wright foolish posts...It will help you, I think....Vzaimno. Wish you are always content with getting back the fruits of your seeds.But what does this kind of an argument prove? Rudeness is is rudeness. Trying to block opponents this way?
The thing that I did care of is that people like you may be driving Russian tanks in Georgia while we make our less or more polite discussions here.
BTW, that post was a reply to the point of the text that you cited. I do not think it was my fault you could not see the meanning.
Yalta, your advice to be less prickly,was offensive for me....
2)Chena, I wanted to fetch another opinion at the problem of "native' people... But also I can't tell you that your historicals facts are lies....
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
Yalta1945 Wrote:There are dangerous ongoing activities in the region. Any historical discussions are out of the list of the most urgent problems at the moment.
This looks like indications of the ongoing implementation of the annexation plan:
South Ossetia's parliamentary speaker Znaur Gassiyev said Russia would absorb the region within "several years", according to a report by the Associated Press.
Interfax quoted Abkhazia's foreign minister, Sergei Shamba, as saying his province "may become part of the Union State of Russia and Belarus".
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7587598.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7587598.stm</a><!-- m -->
People are still in a big danger despite all Kremlin’s promises made recently to the EU and the rest of the world. This is a must reading:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm">http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08 ... i19712.htm</a><!-- m -->
completly agree with you, but some of the members are trying to justify all these by historical "evidence". actualy, what is happening now was part of the "Plan", so nothing unexpected (unfortunatelly). the only hope is that the world will realize the danger we all are facing!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
Giovane Wrote:Yalta1945 Wrote:Giovane Wrote:Shut up, and don't wright foolish posts...It will help you, I think....Vzaimno. Wish you are always content with getting back the fruits of your seeds.But what does this kind of an argument prove? Rudeness is is rudeness. Trying to block opponents this way?
The thing that I did care of is that people like you may be driving Russian tanks in Georgia while we make our less or more polite discussions here.
BTW, that post was a reply to the point of the text that you cited. I do not think it was my fault you could not see the meanning.
Yalta, your advice to be less prickly,was offensive for me....
2)Chena, I wanted to fetch another opinion at the problem of "native' people... But also I can't tell you that your historicals facts are lies....
Could you tell me what is your motivation to be a member of this forum? Mostly your answers are either offensive statements or “it is a lie”. I guess you should revise either motivation or membership of this forum.
There is no way to discuss anything if your only response is “it is a lie”, which is, btw, the easiest thing to do when you have NOTHING to say.
Bye Vania
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-29-2008
Giovane Wrote:Yalta, your advice to be less prickly,was offensive for me....OK, I accept it and I will put it differently:
Please do not take your arguments on the events dating as far back as 1930’s out of the broader context of the Stalinist politics (the context might be reduced to the Stalinist period, at least). If you follow my advice you should arrive at the conclusions that are much more grounded. Otherwise, it might be just an incompetent speculation. We should avoid such speculations, especially at this very sensitive time in Caucasus.
p.s. In fact, I wrote "pricky", not " prickly". Anyway...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
chena Wrote:completly agree with you, but some of the members are trying to justify all these by historical "evidence". actualy, what is happening now was part of the "Plan", so nothing unexpected (unfortunatelly). the only hope is that the world will realize the danger we all are facing!
The danger You think we all are facing is mostly fictitious - the only real danger was generated by Georgia
itself and was of course the possibility that Western and Russian politics can't settle down the situation.
Now everyone are calming down - and there is no real danger.
And I really hope that Baltic Countries don't follow Georgias bad example - they also seems to think
that the wisest politic is taunting Russia in every possibility. If they keep implementing their own foreign-
politic which is very different from the rest of EU, they really can't blame anyone else as themselves
if something similar happens to them.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-29-2008
Excerpting small parts of my own post on the BBC website:
The task of EU is not difficult as it currently requires just smart talk. Russia must look at the mirror of its own promises and commitments but the EU must help her do it. First of all, the six point agreement. Let’s evaluate how Russia honours it. And so on: all talk must emphasise [&stipulate] the principles of international law and Russia’s own commitments. It has to be clear that different versions of the August events were presented to the world but we need to know better who did what. The EU officials should then only communicate about their conclusions to people so that every twit sees at it. This is the battle of arguments. The actions depend upon them.
I am only afraid that Kremlin may see the option of absorbing the whole Georgia as the most effective way to push Ukraine off the road of democratic enhancement. I’m sure the present grim situation would have not been possible without the anti-democratic tendencies in the Russian domestic politics.
(“Georgia crisis tests EU”)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2008/08/s_1.html">http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters ... 8/s_1.html</a><!-- m -->
(Post 208. At 3:19pm on 29 Aug 2008, Yalta1945)
Well, I am also concerned of the full sanity of the leaders of the countries directly involved in the conflict. To be frank, I am concerned of M.S’s health condition. But I am even much more concerned about V.P.’s sanity. His claim that the recent conflict was provoked by Americans just to create an advantage for the one U.S. presidential candidate over the other sounds too crazy. But maybe this just a part of another sad phenomenon - Russia's propaganda warfare.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586662.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586662.stm</a><!-- m -->
Let’s bear in our minds that various disinformation campaigns (in order to win people’s minds) can also be a part of modern warfare.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-29-2008
independent Wrote:chena Wrote:completly agree with you, but some of the members are trying to justify all these by historical "evidence". actualy, what is happening now was part of the "Plan", so nothing unexpected (unfortunatelly). the only hope is that the world will realize the danger we all are facing!
The danger You think we all are facing is mostly fictitious - the only real danger was generated by Georgia
itself and was of course the possibility that Western and Russian politics can't settle down the situation.
Now everyone are calming down - and there is no real danger.
And I really hope that Baltic Countries don't follow Georgias bad example - they also seems to think
that the wisest politic is taunting Russia in every possibility. If they keep implementing their own foreign-
politic which is very different from the rest of EU, they really can't blame anyone else as themselves
if something similar happens to them.
Independent,
The fact is that Saakashvili had just one choice to respond immediately or to postpone Russian provocation. This is unfortunate truth, I am far from being the supporter of Saakashvili and his policies but in this case I don’t think he really had options. Who knows…
The main problem is that Russia is becoming (if not became) neo-Nazi/Bolshevik country that is not factious danger. The country is led by a person who’s idol is Stalin. Tell me what could be worse? On the contrary to Germany of 1930s Russia is much bigger, it is one of the biggest oil suppliers. The latest could be enough to control Europe. The question is not whether to cooperate or not with Russia, the question is whether Europe is ready to face and deal with new Stalin (i.e. Putin). Russia’s only purpose in this war was not to punish Georgia and it’s obvious, it’s more to make a statement: “I am back and I am alive. Iosif Visarionovich Stalin (Putin)”.
Also, I am against any kind of military operation against Russia, this would be guaranteed WWIII, but western politicians should make sure that Stalin won’t reincarnate.