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+--- Thread: Georgia and South Ossetia at war (/thread-1703.html)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-28-2008
lashachochua Wrote:So than why it is difficult to understand georgia's choice...We historically know what russia might do with a small country, that's why we are trying to enter NATO and EU, we are really nation who wants to build democracy and be safe from russian aggression, why we should care about Russia's safety when they are making only problems to us....You know no georgian has something against russian people, there is no any tensions about russians....But Russian government - depressed by the idea of Super Power and imperializm is really a threat for us........This made us to make our choice on USA, you should understand this.
You are not afraid cause you are in EU, you are safe.......We do not
I understand it, but I also understand that Your choice was not a good one - I'm sorry for that, but it is true.
You can never bypass: Keep friends close and enemies far a way. It is the only thing that works.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Eka - 08-28-2008
Benn Wrote:lashachochua, I think you can join NATO, but first you'll have to admit that you lost South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russians people are living there, who don't wanna be with you.Benn of course you can go were you want but after referendum with all IDPs from those 2 regions - ABXAzeti and SIDA KARTLI. ok after they can go to RUSSIA . OK you agree ar no?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-28-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:why you worry guys, if we dream, there is nothing bad in dreaming........We will see on Monday, our dreaming is right or your old pragmatizm....why you do not want to understand that Europe is fed up with Russia;s actions, alaways manupulating with oil.......Russian time is over, no oil policy can make europe to be afraid.......I am dreamer, dreamer, dreamer...........
Have You any idea of how much is worth "business as usual" between EU and Russia - even if You deduct
oil and gas ? And have You any Idea how much power big companies has in EU politic ? Or how big share
of GDP in EU countries is coming from export to Russia and from subsidiaries from Russia.
When You has estimated it - You understand. And remember that even we in west are willingly speaking
about our investments in Russia - they are investing even more to West.
I do understand your point....But Europe and in general all countries do not think about economics alone...We also thought that after Russian embargo georgian economy will not survive, But I was in research group who studied the ipmect of russian embargo on georgian economy, the impact was not huge....Yes I know in EU-Russian case there will be definate economic losses, but western ideology is based on the following saying which belongs to one of american pesident...
Those who will say no to his independence for the sake of safety and well-being (sustainibility) do not deserve any of them....
Sometimes economic losses is better than huge problems in future....Here was information that Russia will talk about Moldovian case, they will not stop....You know what is logic of Imperialist, we did with Georgia we can did it with Ukraine, Moldova and so on
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-28-2008
Benn Wrote:lashachochua, I think you can join NATO, but first you'll have to admit that you lost South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russians people are living there, who don't wanna be with you.
benn, are you serious?... who told you that there live russians?...even now in Abkhazia Armenians are more than native abkhazians....Russians live everywhere, than are you ready to give all territories to russia
where russians live....They provided russian passports to abkhazians and ossetians....By international law this fact is condemned...So guys, in what kind of world you want to live, where Jungle rules are gevrning realtions between countries........
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-28-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:So than why it is difficult to understand georgia's choice...We historically know what russia might do with a small country, that's why we are trying to enter NATO and EU, we are really nation who wants to build democracy and be safe from russian aggression, why we should care about Russia's safety when they are making only problems to us....You know no georgian has something against russian people, there is no any tensions about russians....But Russian government - depressed by the idea of Super Power and imperializm is really a threat for us........This made us to make our choice on USA, you should understand this.
You are not afraid cause you are in EU, you are safe.......We do not
I understand it, but I also understand that Your choice was not a good one - I'm sorry for that, but it is true.
You can never bypass:Quote:Keep friends close and enemies far a way. It is the only thing that works.
This is what we are doing....I hope in the words "close" and "far a way" you do not mean just phisical distance
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-28-2008
lashachochua Wrote:I do understand your point....But Europe and in general all countries do not think about economics alone...We also thought that after Russian embargo georgian economy will not survive, But I was in research group who studied the ipmect of russian embargo on georgian economy, the impact was not huge....Yes I know in EU-Russian case there will be definate economic losses, but western ideology is based on the following saying which belongs to one of american pesident...
Those who will say no to his independence for the sake of safety and well-being (sustainibility) do not deserve any of them....
Sometimes economic losses is better than huge problems in future....Here was information that Russia will talk about Moldovian case, they will not stop....You know what is logic of Imperialist, we did with Georgia we can did it with Ukraine, Moldova and so on
You know when I was younger I used to think a lot of that way myself. The older You get the clearer it
comes that money don't smell and there is not a better argument than money.
World was different earlier, but globalisation has made us think differently. There are any idealism left
anymore. And good and bad are irrelevant when money talks.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-28-2008
lashachochua Wrote:This is what we are doing....I hope in the words "close" and "far a way" you do not mean just phisical distanceSorry but it means just that...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Benn - 08-28-2008
What I meant by saying Russians live in Abkhazia and South Ossetia is - pro-Russians. I didn't mean people who hold Russian citizenship. Though, I think these people would be happy to have it.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-28-2008
why you worry guys, if we dream, there is nothing bad in dreaming........We will see on Monday, our dreaming is right or your old pragmatizm....why you do not want to understand that Europe is fed up with Russia;s actions, alaways manupulating with oil.......Russian time is over, no oil policy can make europe to be afraid.......I am dreamer, dreamer, dreamer...........[/quote]
They dont Know hothing about NABUKO I suppose...[/quote]
Ok, EU will stop buy Russian gas, Russia will sell it in China, Japan, S.Korea, there are so many markets. And what????
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-28-2008
Eka Wrote:They dont Know hothing about NABUKO I suppose...
Do You mean Nabucco Pipeline ?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-28-2008
Giovane Wrote:why you worry guys, if we dream, there is nothing bad in dreaming........We will see on Monday, our dreaming is right or your old pragmatizm....why you do not want to understand that Europe is fed up with Russia;s actions, alaways manupulating with oil.......Russian time is over, no oil policy can make europe to be afraid.......I am dreamer, dreamer, dreamer...........They dont Know hothing about NABUKO I suppose...[/quote]
Ok, EU will stop buy Russian gas, Russia will sell it in China, Japan, S.Korea, there are so many markets. And what????[/quote]
China will not support Russia, due to its corrent situation.....You know I am really tired of proving that EU will do something.....I beleive to it....and Very soon we will see it....so speculations where russia will sell his oil, I do not care........The whole geopolitics and geoeconomics is not only about oil and gas......
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-28-2008
Benn Wrote:What I meant by saying Russians live in Abkhazia and South Ossetia is - pro-Russians. I didn't mean people who hold Russian citizenship. Though, I think these people would be happy to have it.
benn about 80% of native population are dispalced from their homes....The logical brain should demand that these people should get back......is it so difficult to understand....See my comments about history of Abkhazia, this was alweays georgian teritory, we are not going to loose it.....It will never happen
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Benn - 08-28-2008
you don't care about to whom Russia will sell oil? Well, I guess the whole Europe will, when the problem will be raised. At least I am concerned about that. I don't wanna remain without gas you know.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-28-2008
lashachochua Wrote:The whole geopolitics and geoeconomics is not only about oil and gas......
What else there is ? Weapon export...
Really like to know Your opinion of what else is in game.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Eka - 08-28-2008
"You know when I was younger I used to think a lot of that way myself. The older You get the clearer it
comes that money don't smell and there is not a better argument than money.
World was different earlier, but globalisation has made us think differently. There are any idealism left
anymore. And good and bad are irrelevant when money talks.[/quote]( from independants post not my)
YOU know I supose that money smells. And its very bad and dangerous when it smells with blood. And when European gas now smells with Geogian ( I meen under Georgians all victims from both sides) blood is very bad too.
I am now in Europe not in Georgia. I am 5 days here and I am happy that majority of peole with whom I meet have very different position than you have. "And good and bad are irrelevant when money talks" - of courese probably for you.Can take this as compliment if you want.
What the heads of EU will disscuse is not so important for me. I know very clearly that we have support we need and lets watch what will be in nearest or far future.
Ideas of humanizm are not eyt neglected by most of human beengs. So ideas you recomend us to take to account are not reprezenting Europeans, so please dont speak from every one. They are different from you.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-28-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:I do understand your point....But Europe and in general all countries do not think about economics alone...We also thought that after Russian embargo georgian economy will not survive, But I was in research group who studied the ipmect of russian embargo on georgian economy, the impact was not huge....Yes I know in EU-Russian case there will be definate economic losses, but western ideology is based on the following saying which belongs to one of american pesident...
Those who will say no to his independence for the sake of safety and well-being (sustainibility) do not deserve any of them....
Sometimes economic losses is better than huge problems in future....Here was information that Russia will talk about Moldovian case, they will not stop....You know what is logic of Imperialist, we did with Georgia we can did it with Ukraine, Moldova and so on
You know when I was younger I used to think a lot of that way myself. The older You get the clearer it
comes that money don't smell and there is not a better argument than money.
World was different earlier, but globalisation has made us think differently. There are any idealism left
anymore. And good and bad are irrelevant when money talks.
How old are you? just I wonder how many years I have to wait for changing my mind and how long will it take transformation of my ideas from liberalizm to pragmatizm?..
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-28-2008
China as can suppot as can't dupport Russia. But Russian oil they will always buy.......
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-28-2008
Eka Wrote:YOU know I supose that money smells. And its very bad and dangerous when it smells with blood. And when European gas now smells with Geogian ( I meen under Georgians all victims from both sides) blood is very bad too.
I am now in Europe not in Georgia. I am 5 days here and I am happy that majority of peole with whom I meet have very different position than you have. "And good and bad are irrelevant when money talks" - of courese probably for you.Can take this as compliment if you want.
What the heads of EU will disscuse is not so important for me. I know very clearly that we have support we need and lets watch what will be in nearest or far future.
Ideas of humanizm are not eyt neglected by most of human beengs. So ideas you recomend us to take to account are not reprezenting Europeans, so please dont speak from every one. They are different from you.
I didn't say I like the way things are - it is a different story. But i'm not blind or credulous either.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Benn - 08-28-2008
Sure Giovane, it's geographically convenient for China to buy oil from Russia.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Eka - 08-28-2008
independent Wrote:NO I meen opera NABUKOEka Wrote:They dont Know hothing about NABUKO I suppose...
Do You mean Nabucco Pipeline ?
:-)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-28-2008
lashachochua Wrote:Benn Wrote:What I meant by saying Russians live in Abkhazia and South Ossetia is - pro-Russians. I didn't mean people who hold Russian citizenship. Though, I think these people would be happy to have it.
benn about 80% of native population are dispalced from their homes....The logical brain should demand that these people should get back......is it so difficult to understand....See my comments about history of Abkhazia, this was alweays georgian teritory, we are not going to loose it.....It will never happen
You know ,this 'native' population appered only in 1930's by Stalin's and Beria order (they was georgians)....
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-28-2008
lashachochua Wrote:How old are you? just I wonder how many years I have to wait for changing my mind and how long will it take transformation of my ideas from liberalizm to pragmatizm?..
I hope it takes a really long time for You - World appears much more nicer before transformation.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-28-2008
Eka Wrote:independent Wrote:NO I meen opera NABUKOEka Wrote:They dont Know hothing about NABUKO I suppose...
Do You mean Nabucco Pipeline ?
Fine, I also like Verdi
lurp
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Eka - 08-28-2008
Giovane Wrote:IIvan .. sit down!lashachochua Wrote:Benn Wrote:What I meant by saying Russians live in Abkhazia and South Ossetia is - pro-Russians. I didn't mean people who hold Russian citizenship. Though, I think these people would be happy to have it.
benn about 80% of native population are dispalced from their homes....The logical brain should demand that these people should get back......is it so difficult to understand....See my comments about history of Abkhazia, this was alweays georgian teritory, we are not going to loose it.....It will never happen
You know ,this 'native' population appered only in 1930's by Stalin's and Beria order (they was georgians)....
2 in history! As your president Putin have already mark 2.( CNN)
YOu probably dont hear about Geogain nobels named SHErvashidze, anchabadze and so on..
During past 4-5 centyrise they were nobel families of ABXAZETI - EGRISI.
You hear something about Moskovia? than moskovia grew and become huge country =RUSSIA. WE were GEORGIA when you Russian were only _MOSKOVIA , and Egrisi( ABXAZET) and SIDA KARTLI were georgian teritory during last many-many ears. Stalin was idiot. He gaves you feeling that you can be Empire after revolution. I was dreaming that Russian solgers blow up his statue in Gori, but they were puting folwers there. So Stalin is more Russian than Goergian. We dont like him. And you Russian make him " FACE of Russia" by internet polling . So he have done nothing good for us , only problems, but for Russia he have done many things.
Does not matter. Georgian Stalin bild you Empire in 20-th centyre and Georgia case will ruin it in 21 -th. :-)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-28-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:The whole geopolitics and geoeconomics is not only about oil and gas......
What else there is ? Weapon export...
Really like to know Your opinion of what else is in game.
Ok I start from the agreement of SARAGOS, which was in the end of 15 century, this was for the first time in the world when Spain and Portugale divided the world by two parts, this is for the first time when real global politics started operation, till the industrialization, the main goal of countries was to acquire as much land as possible, we can call this period territorial globalization...( The necessity of land was determined by the agrarian economy, those who had huge lands had possibility to have huge population, huge population was strength) what was determining the relation between land and population, here you need understand the logics of Malthusian economic model...Due to lack of technological progress, the level of population was stickd to the amount of land. As industrialization started operation, it became more profitable to run economic globalization, not territorial...Countries decided to start investing in other countries and in this way strength their influance....By the way this is period when real global empires emerged....Holland, than Grat Britain....( of caurse world war 1 and world war 2 had influence on these processes) .... Mahen, the greatest amaricam geopolitician, he was admiral, in his book wrote that USA navy should support economic relations of USA in order to make USA the world power....So in this period economic means was crucial for super power...This period we can call economic globalization...After 1950-1960 it is getting more and more easier to transmit technological progress....The economic means is not enough to be in power, due to its simplicity to work reach technological frontier.....You can see progress of The group of Lions, Taiwan and other neobouring countries....The USA was the first who realized that it is time for virtual globalization....It is time to democratize the world and this sense to stay in global power as a ideological leader.....This period can be called virtual globalization.....Based on all these modern western countries will not give russia possibility by economic means to get to world superpower.....Ideology, this is modern weapon of global governance.... It is logical because the history is teleological, which means there is trend of progress. it is true and some ciclicality is presented but long run trend is on face.....World day by day is getting better place to live according to idelogical attitudes ( I am talking about long-run trend of History)
So dear friends, I do not beleive that in future Russia wil manage to get back his power by simple geoeconomic means......The new superpower needs first of all new ideology....Do you see any new ideology in Russia.....No........So now what we have to do is not to let Russia to make one more cyclical hoistorical step....There is not time for political depression.....Western countries will not allow this.....
Ops I am tired..............