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+--- Thread: Georgia and South Ossetia at war (/thread-1703.html)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Benn - 08-25-2008
SiD, in this case, it's about time Saakashvili recognizes he can't fulfill his promise. I have no idea how he is going to solve the problem with one's blood shading.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - the globe - 08-25-2008
So-called Russian “peacemakers” killed Georgian civilians by cluster bombing. If anybody has a doubt, please, visit the website of Human Rights Watch to see video of bombing of Georgian town Gori.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Hello,everybody!
I want to tell to all Georgians - you, guys, never know what democraty is. You just in the beginning of the basic understanding of democracy. And you have to be humble student of it, but not arrogant militarist. Saakashvily impatiantly jumped toward the war, because he do not want to be humble student and to lead his people patiantly to the democracy. But russians even not in the beginning fase of democracy. You cannot fight with them - they are not civilised yet.
I was in USA for 8 years and I know - what democracy is about. Main aspect of it - tolerance and patience. And you, georgians, do not have this yet. When I was in military service - I meet few georgians. They was nice guys, but with wery shot temper. That is why georgians have to learn this lesson. And, when you, guys, will be real people of democracy - we, russians, will be at oure kniss in front of you, but not now.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-25-2008
Benn Wrote:SiD, in this case, it's about time Saakashvili recognizes he can't fulfill his promise. I have no idea how he is going to solve the problem with one's blood shading.Well he tried to solve this problem. Militarly. All saw. It didnt worked. But i doubt that he will just recognize his mistake, he will rather blame Russia for his mistakes. Do you think it will be hard to convince georgian people now that russians are core of all thier problems?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-25-2008
russian999 Wrote:Hello,everybody!
I want to tell to all Georgians - you, guys, never know what democraty is. You just in the beginning of the basic understanding of democracy. And you have to be humble student of it, but not arrogant militarist. Saakashvily impatiantly jumped toward the war, because he do not want to be humble student and to lead his people patiantly to the democracy. But russians even not in the beginning fase of democracy. You cannot fight with them - they are not civilised yet.
I was in USA for 8 years and I know - what democracy is about. Main aspect of it - tolerance and patience. And you, georgians, do not have this yet. When I was in military service - I meet few georgians. They was nice guys, but with wery shot temper. That is why georgians have to learn this lesson. And, when you, guys, will be real people of democracy - we, russians, will be at oure kniss in front of you, but not now.
Humble student of democracy :lol: :lol: :lol: . I assume USA are WISE TEACHER :lol: :lol: :lol: .
And of course without democracy there is no civilization :lol: :lol: :lol: . What is democeacy then?
Can you please tell what word kniss means? ( i think i understud what you meant but just to avoid missunderstanding i must ask before make any comments)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Benn - 08-25-2008
the globe Wrote:So-called Russian “peacemakers” killed Georgian civilians by cluster bombing. If anybody has a doubt, please, visit the website of Human Rights Watch to see video of bombing of Georgian town Gori.you see, when the war is started it's too late to make complaints. Georgia could have avoided the attack on Gori by not attacking South Ossetian people.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:Humble student of democracy . I assume USA are WISE TEACHER .Knees, you are right. Actually - my first impression about americans people was the absence of communists arrogance. Because of arrogance communists ant totalitarist are so agressive. Georgians went not so far from russians in counterproductive proudness.
And of course without democracy there is no civilization . What is democeacy then?
Can you please tell what word kniss means? ( i think i understud what you meant but just to avoid missunderstanding i must ask before make any comments)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:What is democeacy then?I think democracy is conciense choice of person to take the responsibility to be human. I live in the middle of Russia, in Siberia. Beetwen my neigbors are 30% of alcocholics. They can not be responsible even for themself. That is why russians not in civiliesd category yet. It is oure pain, but we have to be under totalitarian government. Otherwise Russia will explode, maybe with a nuke.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-25-2008
russian999 Wrote:Knees, you are right. Actually - my first impression about americans people was the absence of communists arrogance. Because of arrogance communists ant totalitarist are so agressive. Georgians went not so far from russians in counterproductive proudness.
Well about knees you speak for yourself. No one can stop you if you want. Your choice.
How many days not aggressive, peaceful, patient and tollerant US needed to learn about absence of WMD ther? And of course they were searching without any aggression, right.
Democracy is not absolute value of every country. Some need it, some dont. Arrogance is to think that you only one who knows what to do.
By the way i am not speaking against democracy. What i mean is It can not be just brought. And there is no great teachers of democracy in the world.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-25-2008
russian999 Wrote:Quote:What is democeacy then?I think democracy is conciense choice of person to take the responsibility to be human. I live in the middle of Russia, in Siberia. Beetwen my neigbors are 30% of alcocholics. They can not be responsible even for themself. That is why russians not in civiliesd category yet. It is oure pain, but we have to be under totalitarian government. Otherwise Russia will explode, maybe with a nuke.
Partly it is true.
Quote:I think democracy is conciense choice of person to take the responsibility to be human.Human? strange view. To be free is more suitable. But not of person but of society.
Person can be free even in opressive regime.
No one can tell who is civilized or not civilized. That is real arrogance. More than that judging from number of people who they call alcocholics. Look at any country you will find problems. That doesnt mean anything.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mila - 08-25-2008
Eka Wrote:AS you know its impossible to shut down sattelites. So we are watching them.Eka, I don't really know in detail how this satellite thing works. So I'll have to believe you on this, which I certainly do.
Eka Wrote:And you know that russian huckers destroy georgian web with cyber-attack and have no access to internet during first days of war. Especcially to georgian web?No, I didn't know that. What I know is that Russian huckers disabled the site of the Georgian ministry of foreign affairs. Well, what can I say? It was a bad thing to do, there is no doubt in that.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mila - 08-25-2008
chena Wrote:Mila, just to prove that it is possible to watch Russian tv and have an access to Russian websites please see the attachement. I copied it from Lenta.ru you will be able to check it.That's good enough. I am quite convinced. Thank you for clearing this up for me.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Code:
How many days not aggressive, peaceful, patient and tollerant US needed to learn about absence of WMD ther? And of course they were searching without any aggression, right.
Democracy is not absolute value of every country. Some need it, some dont. Arrogance is to think that you only one who knows what to do.
By the way i am not speaking against democracy. What i mean is It can not be just brought. And there is no great teachers of democracy in the world.Quote:Human? strange view. To be free is more suitable. But not of person but of society.Anyway you cannot be free from society. What I mean "civilized" - to be responsible. I am not judging alcoholics, just I want to tell, that they are not responsible members of society.
Person can be free even in opressive regime.
No one can tell who is civilized or not civilized. That is real arrogance. More than that judging from number of people who they call alcocholics. Look at any country you will find problems. That doesnt mean anything.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
The time line of the conflict.
1. Before Georgian side started bombing Ossetian (Georgian) teritories, Ossettian side had bombed Georgian bordering villages for two days. Russian Officials said that it is getting difficult to control ossetian separatists, there are a lot of volunters and so on ...(for two days Georgian side was not opening fire) This was the last thing that made georgian side to start bomberding ossetian positions. Within 24 hours Russian troops appeared in the territory of Georgia, which is practically impossible if they were not prepared for this ahead. So now you decide who started the war?...
2. This is not the war against Georgia, The western world should understand that Russia is trying to reestablish its different face. Trying to look like they can effect world politics. But I am sure, that after cold war, russia was left on its fate, but after these processes new geopolitical games will start to be under operation against russians and they will soon feel the result of western startegic thinking. There is no time for Russian type politics in modern times.
So look out! The russian world aggression shoudl be killed in childhood, otherwise the whole world will pay for it. There is no place and time for New Soviet Union...There is no need and demand for NEW STALIN!geo geo
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:The time line of the conflict.My frend! If you want to be the part of the western world - you have to learn how to COOPERATE! Look at your western allys - Europe and USA know better than you how Russia can be dangerous. But they still trying to COOPERATE with Russia, because they have good manners and that is why they are responsible players in the world. But you, instead of recognizing your own shortcomings trying to find out - who is wrong. Just take responsibility for your shit and Russia will take responsibility for her own shit.
1. Before Georgian side started bombing Ossetian (Georgian) teritories, Ossettian side had bombed Georgian bordering villages for two days. Russian Officials said that it is getting difficult to control ossetian separatists, there are a lot of volunters and so on ...(for two days Georgian side was not opening fire) This was the last thing that made georgian side to start bomberding ossetian positions. Within 24 hours Russian troops appeared in the territory of Georgia, which is practically impossible if they were not prepared for this ahead. So now you decide who started the war?...
2. This is not the war against Georgia, The western world should understand that Russia is trying to reestablish its different face. Trying to look like they can effect world politics. But I am sure, that after cold war, russia was left on its fate, but after these processes new geopolitical games will start to be under operation against russians and they will soon feel the result of western startegic thinking. There is no time for Russian type politics in modern times.
So look out! The russian world aggression shoudl be killed in childhood, otherwise the whole world will pay for it. There is no place and time for New Soviet Union...There is no need and demand for NEW STALIN!geo geo
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-25-2008
russian999 Wrote:Actually I am agree with you about stupidness of some USA international affairs. But, you know, they will learn and they will change. This is the power of a real democracy. USA government can repent , because people will make them to do so. I talk with my frends in USA and they too dont like Bush.
Well it is good if people can change course of government if they realy dislike it. But damage is done isnt it?
I meant that even if country is democratic it doesnt mean that it is peacefull country. After all people can be desieved or they can simply support foreign policy of thier government.
russian999 Wrote:Anyway you cannot be free from society. What I mean "civilized" - to be responsible. I am not judging alcoholics, just I want to tell, that they are not responsible members of society.
True. Democracy needs middle class. Without one it will be no responsible people. See the topics of georgians in this forum. Thier government made fatal mistake but do anyone blames them? No. But they call themselves democratic, free and so on.
Anyway the whole situation has nothing to do with democracy or any other form of government. It is geopolitics.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:Well it is good if people can change course of government if they realy dislike it. But damage is done isnt it?I am agree with you. We all not perfect yet.
I meant that even if country is democratic it doesnt mean that it is peacefull country. After all people can be desieved or they can simply support foreign policy of thier government.
Quote:True. Democracy needs middle class. Without one it will be no responsible people. See the topics of georgians in this forum. Thier government made fatal mistake but do anyone blames them? No. But they call themselves democratic, free and so on.Strongly agree with you. Georgians does not take responsibility for they wrong - it is sign of underage view point.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-26-2008
I hope all Georgians to read following article (New York Times):
E.U. Treads Gingerly in Georgia Crisis
link:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/world/europe/26russia.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/world ... ussia.html</a><!-- m -->
And please, think what has been told in it.
You have a choice to agree EU majority or not. But remember if You don't agree, we find it really
aimless to tighten co-operation with Your country. Our views simply differs too much.
And remember - there is no real possibility for You to change our minds. And no need for trying
to do it.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Darcho - 08-26-2008
First of all, as some already mentioned I don't undestand why this topic is named "Georgia and South Ossetia at war" I would call it "Russia's attemp to enlarge it's territory" or something like that. I'm so interested if people blaming Georgia in initiating the war really beleve in what they say. Russia's motivation is very clear. It needed conflicts in Abkhazia and Samachablo (South Osetia) for keeping control on Georgia saying: OK if you don't want to loose your territories don't even dream about becaming a member of NATO. This is dirty political game, which Georgia refused to play and that's why we have Russian troops in our country now. I'm very glad that international organizations support my country and hope it will make Russia leave whole Georgian territory. Georgia have never occupied other countries in difference of Russia. Georgians are not chauvinists. There are many nations living here: Azerbaijanians, Armenians, Russians, Ukraininas, Jews, Ossetians and many others. We live in peace with them and we can live with Ossetians and Abkhazians if Russia let us. It's funny to hear that Russia photects small nations as we saw how it "protected" Chechens. Who can be sure it will not name Abkhazians and Ossetians terrorist tomorrow and will not clean territories from these people for having longer coastal zone on Black Sea and one more mountain resort.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-26-2008
independent Wrote:I hope all Georgians to read following article (New York Times):And what conclusions should be driven from this article? It indicates that there exists some different points of view in EU countries, concerning their strategy towards Russia. EU is not USSR or Warshaw Block, if I am not mistaken. Let`s wait and see what decisions will be taken. Nobody anticipates that the process will be easy and all the problems will be solved immediately. Be patient. And why are you so irritated with optimism of Georgians? And when you say "We", are you sure that "You" are the voice of EU? I know for sure that your mind can not be changed, but why are you so confident, that your mind and your views is the same as of the whole EU citizens? Aren`t you too self-conceited?
E.U. Treads Gingerly in Georgia Crisis
link:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/world/europe/26russia.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/world ... ussia.html</a><!-- m -->
And please, think what has been told in it.
You have a choice to agree EU majority or not. But remember if You don't agree, we find it really
aimless to tighten co-operation with Your country. Our views simply differs too much.
And remember - there is no real possibility for You to change our minds. And no need for trying
to do it.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-26-2008
Frederic Wrote:And what conclusions should be driven from this article? It indicates that there exists some different points of view in EU countries, concerning their strategy towards Russia. EU is not USSR or Warshaw Block, if I am not mistaken. Let`s wait and see what decisions will be taken. Nobody anticipates that the process will be easy and all the problems will be solved immediately. Be patient. And why are you so irritated with optimism of Georgians? And when you say "We", are you sure that "You" are the voice of EU? I know for sure that your mind can not be changed, but why are you so confident, that your mind and your views is the same as of the whole EU citizens? Aren`t you too self-conceited?
You see EU is divided with this issue - but it is important to notice how many people lives in those
countries "more supportive to georgia". Minority. Also when studying their influence in EU commonly,
only UK has some real influence - others are very small or like Poland and Baltic-countries newcomers.
UK is always loyal to US - so their opinion is not a very big surprise. There is no way Geogia to get
some real support from EU. We are most politely telling You : You have choosed the wrong way.
Frederic Wrote:And when you say "We", are you sure that "You" are the voice of EU? I know for sure that your mind can not be changed, but why are you so confident, that your mind and your views is the same as of the whole EU citizens? Aren`t you too self-conceited?
Might be. But mostly I can see beforehand what is going to be our response in cases like this.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-26-2008
Quote:You see EU is divided with this issue - but it is important to notice how many people lives in thoseDear independent,
countries "more supportive to georgia". Minority. Also when studying their influence in EU commonly,
only UK has some real influence - others are very small or like Poland and Baltic-countries newcomers.
UK is always loyal to US - so their opinion is not a very big surprise. There is no way Geogia to get
some real support from EU. We are most politely telling You : You have choosed the wrong way.
Have you ever heard something about sovereign equality of the states. It is one of the fundamental norms of International Law. Neverthless, why do you think think that bigger countries in EU, for example Germany or France, are not supportive to Georgia. I think they are quite supportive and will become more supportive as extent of Russia`s ambitions is still growing. After the cold war, Western world has become a bit uncoordinated, they thougt they have lost their common foe. The latest developments increase their cohesion.
Even the most supportive country of russia in EU -Germany has quite unambigius position on the issue.
Quote:Might be. But mostly I can see beforehand what is going to be our response in cases like this.[/quote]
You used pronoun "our" again. Am I talking with Mr. Sarkozy or Mr.Solana?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-26-2008
russian999 Wrote:Quote:Well it is good if people can change course of government if they realy dislike it. But damage is done isnt it?I am agree with you. We all not perfect yet.
I meant that even if country is democratic it doesnt mean that it is peacefull country. After all people can be desieved or they can simply support foreign policy of thier government.
Quote:True. Democracy needs middle class. Without one it will be no responsible people. See the topics of georgians in this forum. Thier government made fatal mistake but do anyone blames them? No. But they call themselves democratic, free and so on.Strongly agree with you. Georgians does not take responsibility for they wrong - it is sign of underage view point.
I strongly disagree with you since both of you do not take into consideration the fact that Georgia still in war (Russian troops are on its territory). All this resulted in temporary peace between pro- and antisaakashvilians. Georgians have one enemy Russian government…so most of them try not to discuss Saakashvili’s actions to show the unity even though a lot of Georgians may strongly disagree with them. Especially since whatever mistake Saakashvili made it cannot justify the horrible actions of Russians.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-26-2008
Frederic Wrote:Dear independent,
Have you ever heard something about sovereign equality of the states. It is one of the fundamental norms of International Law. Neverthless, why do you think think that bigger countries in EU, for example Germany or France, are not supportive to Georgia. I think they are quite supportive and will become more supportive as extent of Russia`s ambitions is still growing. After the cold war, Western world has become a bit uncoordinated, they thougt they have lost their common foe. The latest developments increase their cohesion.
Even the most supportive country of russia in EU -Germany has quite unambigius position on the issue.
Do You understand that for years now EU and Russia has tried to co-operate more widely and develop
stability and confidence between us ? It is highly important task for both sides.
Your little "miscalculation" has badly violated our achievements.
Do You understand how disliked is Bush and his administration is as well here in EU as in US ?
We don't want bad copies of Bush running around Europe and messing all upside down. We already
were delighted because this Bush-period is soon over, but You managed to mess up a lot just before
it ends. Thats pity.
Frederic Wrote:You used pronoun "our" again. Am I talking with Mr. Sarkozy or Mr.Solana?I'm a citizen of EU an country - so it is correct to say "our" - Representatives are supposed
to convey our values and opinions, not only their owns.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-26-2008
Russia has just recognized the independence of Abkhazia and Oseeti........This is terrible.........But now It is time to say "Good-Bye Russia, Good-bye"....Very soon you all will see what does it mean........