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+--- Thread: Georgia and South Ossetia at war (/thread-1703.html)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - AlexanderBB - 08-20-2008
SiD Wrote:Wow thats the speach. Old fashioned prapoganda is still in work.. there is CASE FIRE order you know.
So a bit late for such informative, imotional speeches. But thank you for good example of georgian prapoganda. I like how words of our classic is interpriteted
SID,
Its not a propaganda and you know that ! Its the truth - the question is whether you want to see it or you just promote for general nationlal interests. Also please read my post to the end - As I have quoted for the first part of it.
You are trying to push me into discussion while I am trying to appeal for the help.
I can not dispute with you while this masacre is goining on in my country - I just do not care about everything rest right now.
Still here are some questions for you
1. How can you judje and talk on behalf of osetians - while the residents of South Osetia contributed for 70% of Georgians (refugees since 1992) and the 30% of osetians whowere and are under the dictate of Separatist regime backed bu Russian goverment. Same in Abkhazia!
2. Mr. Churkin stated that Russian military forces envaded Georgia to protect Russian citizens (also you know that osetians were forced to take Russian pasports by separatist regime) - then why have russian military entered upper Abhkhazia - there were no any russian citizens there.
3. Do you stil resist that this operation was well planed and long before prepared by russin authorities? Then how can you say that Georgians have started the war?
As for your "Greatest Classics" - Shtobi pastignut smisl etih slov nado hatabi poniat prichini i dushevnoe sastaianie cheloveka satvarvshie eti slova - Ne vse nado panimat bukvalno - Dvuhsmislie bila edinstvenoe arujie velikih klasikov shtobi hatabi kaknibud atabrazit istinuiu sut i prietom vijit!
Vash karlik realno zagubil molodoj rasii i netolka - i nashu - I pravda Lublu rasiiu, umenya mnogo druzei ia 8 let jil v maskve, maih 4 prodeda umerli v 2 miravoi - i v toje vremya ia nenaviju wash provitelstvo karlikov - Paver ani etoi propagandoi tak atravili i vas i nas shto skaree vsevo ia pasledni iz magikan - staraiushisa naiti hatabi adnu nituchku kak mojno sahranit vse to shto ia lubil za vse eti godi.
Prosta vdumaisa v sledushee
v 99 rasia ustorila ekonomicheskuiu blokadu gruziee - Turciaa pamagla i vziala na sebya 80% importa v gruziu
Rasia vnesla vizovi rejim - srazu je Turcia atmenila
Seichas rassia razrushila infrastruqturu gruzii - i vot kaif pervi shto skazal premier turcii - mi vam pamijem vse vistroit za nova!!
VOT VASHA PALITIKA - I polse etova ia ne durak ganaiushisa za himerami ?
Ironia sudbi.............
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Frederic Wrote:Thanks for clarification, but I have not got the information so far that USA is taking any military actions in this war.
They don't have to - I was speaking about profits. Georgia used ca. 15% of GDP yearly for military.
( min 3 billion USD ). And US happens to have "monopoly" to sell weapons to their allies... every
single one of them. So few calculations - and Yes I can say it seems like a good business for me...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-20-2008
independent Wrote:Do you really think that 15% of GDP of a small country is worth to USA the confrontation with Russia. I doubt. Besides, I am sure that USA doesn't have the monopoly of equiping Georgian army.Frederic Wrote:Thanks for clarification, but I have not got the information so far that USA is taking any military actions in this war.
They don't have to - I was speaking about profits. Georgia used ca. 15% of GDP yearly for military.
( min 3 billion USD ). And US happens to have "monopoly" to sell weapons to their allies... every
single one of them. So few calculations - and Yes I can say it seems like a good business for me...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Frederic Wrote:Do you really think that 15% of GDP of a small country is worth to USA the confrontation with Russia. I doubt. Besides, I am sure that USA doesn't have the monopoly of equiping Georgian army.
without any doubt can be said that US is the biggest exporter of weapons. No other country gets even
close. So whenever there is a war, it pours out as money in US...
Btw. US is not really confronting Russia in this case - and there are tens of countries like Georgia
buying weapons as well. So few billions from there and few from here - You know together it makes
some serious money.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-20-2008
You argument are really very strong. In order to colllect 1 or 2 billion dollars from military budgets of different countres, USA makes every endeavour to provoke them to start military actions with their big, heavily militarised neighbours.
And one additional clarification, the military budget of Georgia is 1 bln USD, not 3.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Frederic Wrote:You argument are really very strong. In order to colllect 1 or 2 billion dollars from military budgets of different countres, USA makes every endeavour to provoke them to start military actions with their big, heavily militarised neighbours.
And one additional clarification, the military budget of Georgia is 1 bln USD, not 3.
I was not claiming they are provoking wars - but it is in their interests to insist that You are
in danger an it is better to prepare.
I have seen different iestimations how much of GDP Georgia used to military. Varying 15-45%
and Georgias GDP was estimated to be 20.5 billion USD (2007) - source: CIA
So 3 billion is pretty meticulously estimated - ( too small )
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - leoneo - 08-20-2008
Who was the first?
I will try to present the preface.
Russia threatens all Caucasus already 200 years. Bye the way Georgia has much longer history than Russia. Georgia was occupied and annexed by Russian troops in 1801 please mention they come as allies to support Georgia against Iran and Turkey (they had different names that time).
Then after collapse of the Russian empire in 1917 Georgia declared independence that last 4 years. Soviet Russia invaded Georgia using the same method as today - support Ossetians. The Osetians were mach less that time about couple of thousands.
USSR collapsed, Georgia is independent again in 1991. Immediately Osetians and Abkhaz declared, that they need to rejoin mother Russia- please note no independence. Only some period after it was modified and adjusted to proper marketing.
300,000 refugees from Abkhazia all Georgians, total population of Abkhazia was about 450,000 only 80,000 native Abkhaz among them. Guess who was fighting against Georgians?
At the same time Ossetia - problem the same thing but less bloody.
What kind of country could accept two wars at the same time?
Who was the first?
Georgia last couple of years presented steady grows of economy, wealth, happiness and peace.
Russia started pressing - trade embargo came first. Georgians were caught in Russia and sent to Georgia by cargo planes. Russia introduced Visa regime with Georgia none of CIS countries were in the list.
Population of Georgia currently is about 4, 5 million including all ethnical minorities. Georgian army has 30,000 troops.
Population of Russia is 142,008,838 million. Russian army has more than 1 million personnel on active duty.
Who was the first?
Does anybody honestly believe that Russian politicians care about small nations like Georgians, Abkhaz and Osetians?
This is all about power, control, and oil at first place!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
My, God, I saw yesterday this video, what's wrong with Saakashvili whom he was running from?
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://life.ru/video/5008">http://life.ru/video/5008</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
leoneo Wrote:...Who was the first?...
...Who was the first?...
...Who was the first?...
3 * Georgia - but it was because of miscalculation so lets forgive it ?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - kamyon - 08-20-2008
independent Wrote:I was not claiming they are provoking wars - but it is in their interests to insist that You are
in danger an it is better to prepare.
I have seen different iestimations how much of GDP Georgia used to military. Varying 15-45%
and Georgias GDP was estimated to be 20.5 billion USD (2007) - source: CIA
So 3 billion is pretty meticulously estimated - ( too small )
I'm very sorry but it seems that you are exactly claiming that the US government to provoke the ex-Soviet countries the war against Russia.. But there is a huge point that shows us Russia is the main provoker in this situation because their attack against Georgia has started just in the time that when the US is going an election and when the time that the US has a huge ecomonic crisis caused by the actions on the middle-east.. Btw i'm not a US sympathizer even i love the USSR the reason that i am writing these because i'm very dissapointed from the way Russia acting.. I have always seen them as the block against the expansionist policies of the US but not the way they are doing right now...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-20-2008
independent Wrote:Frederic Wrote:You argument are really very strong. In order to colllect 1 or 2 billion dollars from military budgets of different countres, USA makes every endeavour to provoke them to start military actions with their big, heavily militarised neighbours.
And one additional clarification, the military budget of Georgia is 1 bln USD, not 3.
I was not claiming they are provoking wars - but it is in their interests to insist that You are
in danger an it is better to prepare.
I have seen different iestimations how much of GDP Georgia used to military. Varying 15-45%
and Georgias GDP was estimated to be 20.5 billion USD (2007) - source: CIA
So 3 billion is pretty meticulously estimated - ( too small )
can you provide the concrete source of your information. Thats the only information concerning Georgian military I managed to find in CIA World factbook. Maybe it is not updated, so it will be very kind of you if you give me more references. As regards the danger it were Georgians, who insisted for months that they were in danger, but unfortunatelly nobody reacted adequattelly, untill the bombardment of Georgia has began.
Military branches:
Georgian Armed Forces: Land Forces, Navy, Air and Air Defense Forces, National Guard (2008)
Military service age and obligation:
18 to 34 years of age for compulsory and voluntary active duty military service; conscript service obligation - 18 months (2005)
Manpower available for military service:
males age 16-49: 1,113,251
females age 16-49: 1,168,021 (2008 est.)
Manpower fit for military service:
males age 16-49: 910,720
females age 16-49: 967,566 (2008 est.)
Manpower reaching militarily significant age annually:
males age 16-49: 35,917
females age 16-49: 34,566 (2008 est.)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
0.59% (2005 est.)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
Hellooo, anybody can answer my question?!
What happened here <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://life.ru/video/5008">http://life.ru/video/5008</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-20-2008
M.Helen Wrote:Hellooo, anybody can answer my question?!I can. This is the situation when Russian aviation was trying to bombard the cortege of Mr. Saakashvili and Mr. Kouchner (Foreign Minister of France), when they were heading to Gori. Besides, a lot of sources confirm that russians are planing the assault of the President of Georgia. It is not so easy to be extremly calm when your country is being bombarded and destroyed by ocupation forces.
What happened here <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://life.ru/video/5008">http://life.ru/video/5008</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
I'm certain it's not easy to keep calm. But, he knew what is expecting him, he shouldn't then have unleashed the war.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - kamyon - 08-20-2008
Frederic Wrote:M.Helen Wrote:Hellooo, anybody can answer my question?!I can. This is the situation when Russian aviation was trying to bombard the cortege of Mr. Saakashvili and Mr. Kouchner (Foreign Minister of France), when they were heading to Gori. Besides, a lot of sources confirm that russians are planing the assault of the President of Georgia. It is not so easy to be extremly calm when your country is being bombarded and destroyed by ocupation forces.
What happened here <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://life.ru/video/5008">http://life.ru/video/5008</a><!-- m -->
And this clarifies the Russia's actual intention, it is understandable that to interfere an assault on an enemy state's president but it is very blurry to get what they are planning to do that purpose when he is with an French minister..
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Hopla - 08-20-2008
kamyon Wrote:I think it was just an action of intimidation and showing its strength. That`s all. But anyway the aim to overthrow Saakashvili by all means is obvious. I think russian oficial are not too cautios in their methods.Frederic Wrote:M.Helen Wrote:Hellooo, anybody can answer my question?!I can. This is the situation when Russian aviation was trying to bombard the cortege of Mr. Saakashvili and Mr. Kouchner (Foreign Minister of France), when they were heading to Gori. Besides, a lot of sources confirm that russians are planing the assault of the President of Georgia. It is not so easy to be extremly calm when your country is being bombarded and destroyed by ocupation forces.
What happened here <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://life.ru/video/5008">http://life.ru/video/5008</a><!-- m -->
And this clarifies the Russia's actual intention, it is understandable that to interfere an assault on an enemy state's president but it is very blurry to get what they are planning to do that purpose when he is with an French minister..
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lenus - 08-20-2008
Hopla Wrote:I think russian oficial are not too cautios in their methods.
You can say that again.
See for yourself, everyone- LItvinenko Film :
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnkYo9TuBIQ&NR=1">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnkYo9TuBIQ&NR=1</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-20-2008
AlexanderBB Wrote:SID,
Its not a propaganda and you know that ! Its the truth - the question is whether you want to see it or you just promote for general nationlal interests. Also please read my post to the end - As I have quoted for the first part of it.
You are trying to push me into discussion while I am trying to appeal for the help.
I can not dispute with you while this masacre is goining on in my country - I just do not care about everything rest right now.
Still here are some questions for you
1. How can you judje and talk on behalf of osetians - while the residents of South Osetia contributed for 70% of Georgians (refugees since 1992) and the 30% of osetians whowere and are under the dictate of Separatist regime backed bu Russian goverment. Same in Abkhazia!
2. Mr. Churkin stated that Russian military forces envaded Georgia to protect Russian citizens (also you know that osetians were forced to take Russian pasports by separatist regime) - then why have russian military entered upper Abhkhazia - there were no any russian citizens there.
3. Do you stil resist that this operation was well planed and long before prepared by russin authorities? Then how can you say that Georgians have started the war?
As for your "Greatest Classics" - Shtobi pastignut smisl etih slov nado hatabi poniat prichini i dushevnoe sastaianie cheloveka satvarvshie eti slova - Ne vse nado panimat bukvalno - Dvuhsmislie bila edinstvenoe arujie velikih klasikov shtobi hatabi kaknibud atabrazit istinuiu sut i prietom vijit!
Vash karlik realno zagubil molodoj rasii i netolka - i nashu - I pravda Lublu rasiiu, umenya mnogo druzei ia 8 let jil v maskve, maih 4 prodeda umerli v 2 miravoi - i v toje vremya ia nenaviju wash provitelstvo karlikov - Paver ani etoi propagandoi tak atravili i vas i nas shto skaree vsevo ia pasledni iz magikan - staraiushisa naiti hatabi adnu nituchku kak mojno sahranit vse to shto ia lubil za vse eti godi.
Prosta vdumaisa v sledushee
v 99 rasia ustorila ekonomicheskuiu blokadu gruziee - Turciaa pamagla i vziala na sebya 80% importa v gruziu
Rasia vnesla vizovi rejim - srazu je Turcia atmenila
Seichas rassia razrushila infrastruqturu gruzii - i vot kaif pervi shto skazal premier turcii - mi vam pamijem vse vistroit za nova!!
VOT VASHA PALITIKA - I polse etova ia ne durak ganaiushisa za himerami ?
Ironia sudbi.............
You could as well trow out first part. Becouse it is not appilation for help it is call against Russia. Do you really think that other countries would commit suicide just becouse they are asked to do so? And many words about Russia are REAL offending. And many could mean as call for aggression against us, and it is absolutely unnaccepteble. And it REALY LOOKS LIKE PRAPOGANDA ( even if it is not, but i REALY doubt it).
Quote:the question is whether you want to see it or you just promote for general nationlal interests. Did i understood correctly that i must be against general national interests of my country?
You can find answers to your questions in this topic. Just read from the begining if you have time.
Classics are called classics becouse thier words are still actual and will be and there was discussion and different opinions about thier words and will be, so lets leave them.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-20-2008
M.Helen Wrote:Hellooo, anybody can answer my question?!
What happened here <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://life.ru/video/5008">http://life.ru/video/5008</a><!-- m -->
Do you see any planes in the sky? Was Saakashvili realy attacked? NO.
He looks in the sky and suddenly becomes terrofyed. intersting what could he see....
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lenus - 08-20-2008
SiD Wrote:intersting what could he see....
A sniper.
You are welcome.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
How could he see a sniper if nobody saw it? He must have a better sight than his bodyguards :lol: !
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-20-2008
Parhaps our government alligned themselves with marsians and he saw marsian warship? :lol: .
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Benn - 08-20-2008
and he calls himself to be brave? Not a step without the US backup
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Salomo - 08-20-2008
There are many things to answer to and to comment from the last 5-10 pages.
First, about Finnish Winter War: Russia indeed simulated the “shoots of Mainila” to have a reason to be provoked to war. Russia admitted the simulation during Gorbachev regime. (But it seems like Putin & Medvedyev do not admit it any more, and want people to think Finland started that war??) But, the comparison between Mainila and Tskhinvali can not be made, because Finns did not shoot on/from Mainila, but Georgians did on Tskhinvali, unfortunately.
On the other hand, I wish courage to Georgians who have been aggressed by a super-power, just like we in the Winter War, undepending on who “started” the war. It is a fact that Russian troops have come deep into “proper Georgian” zone, bombed cities and killed civilians.
What Georgia did wrong, was to shoot on Tskhinvali and to kill civilians there, but it was NOT wrong to move military equipment into South Ossetia, as it is Georgian territory. Same thing with Russia in Chechnya: move tanks there fine, but to fire on civilians and kill 1/3 of Chechens, that is disgusting… and it is much more than the fatalities in Tskhinvali. Of course even 1 fatality is too much, but…
I would like more Georgians to answer whether independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia would be so terrible. Lenus, thanks for your information on Abkhazia… but how about South Ossetia? Aren’t the Ossetians in majority there?
Again, I would like the Pro-Russians to answer:
- Why do you not condemn bombing of civilians in Gori, done by Russian Army? Or other destroying things, like destroying forests, railways etc.?
- You are accusing Saakashvili to be like Hitler… but how about Putin? Hasn’t he already let kill much more Chechens than Saakashvili let kill South Ossetians?
- What is told to you at school about WWII? Did you know that USSR made a pact with Hitler where they divided Eastern Europe between themselves? Did you know what kind of dictatorial regimes they founded in the countries they “liberated” from Nazis? (Why being surprised when neighbour nations do not love you?)
I am so sick about Russian citizens claiming that “Russia has never bombed any civilians, Georgia has”. Yesterday, there was again such an Ossetian woman in Moscow on TV. Frankly: do your information sources not tell you anything about bombings, killings and destructions done by YOUR army???
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
unfortunately there are very few South Osetians here because the situation there is disastrous and they now can't afford to spend time chatting and giving opinions. I think in few days we will hear opinions of these people.