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+--- Thread: Georgia and South Ossetia at war (/thread-1703.html)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lor - 08-19-2008
independent Wrote:Lor Wrote:AGAIN How come this crisis involves Russian part of population? !!You see I can't think that people who has born in Estonia and have estonian citizenship
can be devided by language. They are all living there.
I disagree. I think this minority in Estonia is not divided only by language. They are clearly divided by culture, since they got so offended by the removal of the statue. I don't think the language is the problem.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-19-2008
Lor Wrote:I disagree. I think this minority in Estonia is not divided only by language. They are clearly divided by culture, since they got so offended by the removal of the statue. I don't think the language is the problem.
You know - world is a strange place. To build up two opposite groups can be done by two provokative
politics. To rejoin them is never as easy.
In Finland we have swedish speaking minority (<10%) - finnish and swedish culture is a little different.
But it is a good thing , because it makes culture commonly richer. It is not a threat. Btw we also have
some 50'000 russian emigrants and no problems at all.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - AlexanderBB - 08-20-2008
""
Dear All
This is an urgent appeal for help to all whom it may concern even in very minor extent, as well as those who are not indifferent to what is now happening in Georgia. Not in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that my country, which has a well-deserved reputation as the region’s only democracy and a thriving economy, would turn into a real war-zone overnight.
Georgia is under a massive all-out ground and air attack as I write this. Our cities, our homes, hospitals, roads, ports, airports, even remote mountain villages have been bombed over the last 72 hours. The country is being devastated by Putin-Medvedev’s inherently sick Russian Neo Nazi regime. The Russians have destroyed television and radio equipment to ensure that their distorted and sick version of events is the one which gets out to the world. For example, yesterday the Russian TV aired footage of their planes bombing a central Georgian town of Gori, only to say that this was footage of the Georgians bombing peaceful Russian positions (in Georgia)!!!
The world’s largest country with the territory spanning 11 time zones, 150 million people and the world’s largest nuclear arsenal has declared that Georgia (a country the size of West Virginia with a population of 4 million) acted as an aggressor – on its own (i.e., Georgian) territory (speaking of chutzpah!!) – and sent its army with tanks and strategic bombers to invade and bomb Georgia from several different directions.
Last year Russia illegally fast-tracked about 30,000 (thirty thousand) people in the north-central Georgian province of Samachablo (South Ossetia) to Russian citizenship, and is now using the pretext of “defending Russian citizens” to justify its barbaric actions (even their pitiful justification for various invasions have not substantially changed in the last 150 years!). Even so, these actions have nothing to do with the so-called “conflict zone”. Every part of Georgia is under attack. Their aim is bomb Georgia into fear and submission, and to topple the country’s pro-Western government.
The existential threats stemming from this profoundly lunatic (but, alas, historically all-too-typical for Russia) regime have long been discarded, minimized or rationalized. Its cynical acts and atrocities (Chechnya, Beslan, Nord Ost, Litvinenko, countless others) have been condoned or hushed up, ostensibly in the name of energy security. Until recently some “old Europeans” found a refuge from reality by blaming the victim (Georgia) for the tensions and accusing Georgia of not doing more to appease the benevolent neighbor – after all, we were still alive (although that is changing as I write this)! I hope it should now be clear even to the “skeptics” like the French and the Germans that the Russians cannot be contained. They cannot be accommodated (Winston Churchill once said that any agreement with the Russians – who, as he observed, always cast themselves as the perennial “Other” – is not worth the piece of paper on which it is made). They cannot be understood by logic (the greatest Russian writer himself said that “Russia cannot be understand by reason”). They are an uncontrollable, irrational, spiteful and destructive force roaming this part of the world, encouraged by abundance of petrodollars and enheartened by disunity of the West.
Now is the time to say “no more”. The moment of truth has come. The Russian “values” are incompatible with 21st century, which is why the Russians are trying to destroy the existing world order and drag the world back into the zero-sum mentality of 19th century, where their psyche seems to be stuck. The international community must treat Russia as the Evil Empire it is – with justified and noble hatred for its government and political system – and should resort to any and all acts and sanctions, which would be natural ramifications of this reality. The West must rid itself of any remaining illusions and must realize that it can no longer co-exist with Russia in its current form. Russia must either transform itself into a civilized state – the chances of which seem negligible (after all, there is a 300-year sorry record of trying to westernize and civilize the Russian bear) – or be dismantled, granting freedom to the lands and peoples it continues to subjugate and nationalizing for the whole world the resources it continues to sit on and abuse.
The world is again divided between the good and the evil. Everyone must choose its side today. Silence is no longer an option. Georgia needs moral, diplomatic, financial and military help, urgently. HELP US! Do something. Do anything to try to stop the carnage. Call your congressman or senator, picket the Russian Embassy or Consulate in your country, boycott Russian products and commodities, make them feel unwelcome in good society, divest from Russia, etc. But if the carnage cannot be stopped, let’s do everything to ensure that Georgia and the world are victorious in this battle against darkness. Evil does not have to prevail. Three million Finns gave us an example of that in 1939, when they defeated the invading Russian Communist Empire and defended the independence of their homeland. One million Chechens fought heroically and won their independence in 1996, only to lose it again after Putin simply killed one third of all Chechens (and, alongside them, thousands of ordinary Russians used as cannon fodder) to conquer this land the size of Delaware…
It is life or death for Georgia now. Nothing else matters now. HELP!!!
p.s. and remember:
"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.”
Pastor Martin Niemöller
""
I have send this letter to my friends and colleagues - when the things have started and quite obviously turned into the worst scenario I have ever imagined. I don't know how to appeal for help any more. The only thing I can possibly do is to tell you what’s going on currently in Georgia. Russian military forces along with Kazak and Chechen counterparts are entering villages and cities destroying everything on their way - and when I say destroying I mean it - Just right now they have blown up newly built campus for exchange students -why??????????? The scheme works in the following way - initially Russian forces are entering villages and disarming local Georgian Patrol. After that their counterparts start killing civilians and stealing everything they can find - for example washing machines..... Soap.... food... cloth.... - hell with everything let them steel anything they want (still very funny Russia with all its natural resources is robbing Georgia) but PLEASE PAY attention the worst is they are kidnapping Georgian women and children!!!! and nobody comes for help. The only thing I am doing during these days - I am thinking what can I do?! I have my successful business. I’ve done BBA and MBA in Europe - I have two child. I can send them to Europe and provide them with enough financial resources to live. - what should I do then?! Escape and look for all what’s happening from TV? I know this is the best solution for me.. but I CAN NOT! I am not afraid to die! And if my country needs I will die! All the time when getting these terrible news I think about buying a rifle and going out there to kill as much "Russian animals" as i will have the chance - but then, when calming down, again and again I come to the conclusion that this is very silly... there is no winner in the war! Please try to understand me - I am not that different from any of you right now reading these message - The only thing I wish is to live in peace.
HELP....
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-20-2008
Wow thats the speach. Old fashioned prapoganda is still in work.
. there is CASE FIRE order you know.So a bit late for such informative, imotional speeches. But thank you for good example of georgian prapoganda. I like how words of our classic is interpriteted
Let me remind those words ( Умом Россию не понять аршином общим не измерить у ней особенная стать в Россию можно только верить). If someone wants he could try to translate those words.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - mihalich - 08-20-2008
Frederic Wrote:dear Michalich,Dear Frederic. In my opinion all of you are mistaken, in an example with Kaliningrad. Kaliningrad it simply city, and Ossetia this state in structure of Georgia and which has capital Tshinvalli. You confuse who this porridge has made. Ossetia and Abkhazia have decided to be separated and receive independence, it was not pleasant to Georgia. From it began the conflict. And Russia initially acted in a role of the peacemaker, and on anything does not apply. Ossets in Georgia, please want to live live, anybody against and words will not tell. Want to be independent, your right, Russia anybody to anything does not force, live.
If I am not mistaken, civilized countries evacuate their citizens from the territories of foreign countries, if there exists any threat for them. It should be also mentioned that this threat was imposed by the Russian government, who used its own citizens to justify its actions. Could you imagine the situation, when for examle Germany decides to issue German passports to the residents of Kaliningrad(former Keningsberg). I think residents of Kaliningrad would be happy to have EU passports. After this Germany starts provocations in Kaliningrad, permanent small clashes, bombardments, kills russian policemen and when at last Russia has no other option as to try to protect its territory and people, Germany invades Kaliningrad and then heads to Moscow, justifing its actions by the interests of its kaliningrad citizens. The situation is absurd. But this is just what Moscow did in Georgia. It should be also mentioned here, that Germany has more reasons to make this in Kaliningarad, then Russia had in South Ossetia, as South Ossetia has never been the part of Russia.
Now Georgia began to bomb Tskhinvali, and has opened direct fire on Russian peacemakers, that Russia should make if she has undertaken to support the world in this region. To run at top speed or strike back?
You speak that civilized countries evacuate the citizens. And what do civilized countries? If to take into account support of Georgia by all world it turns out that in civilized countries it is accepted to bomb installation a hailstones of peace inhabitants, to exhaust people in a shed and to burn there alive, to press the tank the grandmother at which on hands there were two children, to cut a throat to the child to which there was 1 year and 6 months. :quoi So do civilized countries? And in fact it is affairs of the Georgian special troops. Russia forced the Georgian militarians it to do? Or nevertheless praised America which all so zealously protect.
And input of the American armies to Iraq, also started there wars, these are proportional actions?
If not Russia, and America appeared in such situation. Also has made the same, I am confident, it would be applauded with all world.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - kamyon - 08-20-2008
I think things are discussing a little bit different from what is going on right now. The Georgian attack is on the South Ossetia region is maybe true but we have to look the background of the reason of this attack. The separatist Ossetian leaders were provoking the Georgian government and local security forces with the back-up and support of the Russian "peace-keepers" and i think that's why the Georgian government needed to provide its own authority again in the government. And it is the very own action that the Russia has placed its own troops to Ossetia -a region in the Georgian state not a region they rule- and provoke the Ossetians to become an Ossetian instead of a Georgian. And now they are in the 2nd step of what they really planned of for the region -to invade Georgia which has a pro-western government and a newly building oil pipe line for the exportation the Kazak oil to the EU countries- and it is becoming more complicated to prevent Russia from its expansionist actions over the ex-USSR states. They even refuse the UN forces in the region for establishing the conditions to pre-ceasefire conditions from what it becomes now. The main purpose of the Russian actions can be seen from the Ukrainian reaction to Russian actions over Georgia. They realized the Putin's plan of establishing the USSR boundaries and acting more like expecting a Russian attack over them soon and threating Putin to avoid of that. I think to resolve this matter we just have to get rid of a pro-Russian point of view because the actions against the Russia Federation from the EU don't mean that the EU is taking sides with the US government and Bush. And i think it can not be seen as a reply to the US actions on the Iraq. Because if this is seen as a reply the forthcoming actions of Russia will not only bring back the Cold War it will also bring back a very hot war over the Eastern Europe even on the all Europe as it seems.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Inferno - 08-20-2008
But who has provoked ossetic separatists? What for the Georgian snipers and soldiers killed children? If armies of the United Nations will enter into Ossetia they will create there the bases, it becomes threat for border of Russia
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Eka - 08-20-2008
Inferno Wrote:But who has provoked ossetic separatists? What for the Georgian snipers and soldiers killed children? If armies of the United Nations will enter into Ossetia they will create there the bases, it becomes threat for border of RussiaFact, Facts and Facts... But evidance based and from trastfull sources.
Goergian side is working hard to collect facts and to give free and broad access to journalists .
Russian side bahaves is it have done already in CHechnia.
Remeber Politkovskais? She was KILLED BECAUSE SHE INVESTIGATED FACT ABOUT NORD-OST TRAGEDY AND YOU KNOW WHAT WAS THERE - ONE OF TERORISTS IS NOW WORKING IN PUTINS TEAM. IT INDICATES ON SOMETHING OR NO?
So international community trusts only seriosly checked by themself or by free and indepandant journalists facts not immaginations of people which are stressed by war.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - kamyon - 08-20-2008
Inferno Wrote:But who has provoked ossetic separatists? What for the Georgian snipers and soldiers killed children? If armies of the United Nations will enter into Ossetia they will create there the bases, it becomes threat for border of Russia
Do you really believe that Georgian army forces attack the civils in the South Ossetia in front of the Russian army? I think that would be a crazy thing to do. They just attacked the separatist forces to establish their own government in a region that they already own. And i think it can not be seen as a brutal act that a government trying to establish their authority in their own region...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Inferno - 08-20-2008
You asked to yourselves the QUESTION? If Russia has attacked Georgia - Tbilisi. Why it is destroyed by Tskhinvali and inhabitants of South Ossetia are killed?????????????
Here the facts:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://osinform.ru/video/">http://osinform.ru/video/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://osinform.ru/foto/">http://osinform.ru/foto/</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lor - 08-20-2008
Inferno Wrote:You asked to yourselves the QUESTION? If Russia has attacked Georgia - Tbilisi. Why it is destroyed by Tskhinvali and inhabitants of South Ossetia are killed?????????????
Here the facts:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://osinform.ru/video/">http://osinform.ru/video/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://osinform.ru/foto/">http://osinform.ru/foto/</a><!-- m -->
Did you ask yourself these questions?
1. The attack in Tskhinvali was EXAGGERATED? It is estimated that around 50 people died NOT 1600?
2. BEFORE this Georgian attack, the Ossetians(backed up with Russian guns and instigation) killed LOTS of Georgian civilians in the neighboring villages?
3. Russia attacked the whole country, killed lots of women and children, burnt woods and destroyed Georgian infrastructure OUTSIDE South Ossetia?
4.The Russian soldiers in the region were looting, vandalising and stealing from civilians?
5. The Russian soldiers killed LOTS of western journalists? Today our journalists cannot get through easily to South Ossetia because of the Russian army controlling the region?
6. Russia is very SCARED of NATO at its borders?
7.You should visit different media sources, NOT only Russian!
Here you can see some FACTS:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mod.gov.ge/2008/bombing/bombing-E.html">http://www.mod.gov.ge/2008/bombing/bombing-E.html</a><!-- m --> Georgian territories bombed by Russian jets (Map)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://a-ingwar.blogspot.com/2008/08/blog-post_1617.html">http://a-ingwar.blogspot.com/2008/08/bl ... _1617.html</a><!-- m --> Photos taken at the Georgian territories
Some videos:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsTm5K41Z50&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsTm5K41 ... re=related</a><!-- m -->
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Bw682yiyg">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Bw682yiyg</a><!-- m -->
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9cMZwWvDJY&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9cMZwWv ... re=related</a><!-- m -->
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=eshFSm9Ji-M">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=re ... shFSm9Ji-M</a><!-- m -->
Some interviews from a Russian media source
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.echo.msk.ru/">http://www.echo.msk.ru/</a><!-- m -->
Please, read, watch, listen and THINK after that we can talk!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lor - 08-20-2008
independent Wrote:Lor Wrote:I disagree. I think this minority in Estonia is not divided only by language. They are clearly divided by culture, since they got so offended by the removal of the statue. I don't think the language is the problem.
You know - world is a strange place. To build up two opposite groups can be done by two provokative
politics. To rejoin them is never as easy.
In Finland we have swedish speaking minority (<10%) - finnish and swedish culture is a little different.
But it is a good thing , because it makes culture commonly richer. It is not a threat. Btw we also have
some 50'000 russian emigrants and no problems at all.
True I know that in Finland there are small community of Russians, as I know.
Lets see if history can provide some background on Fin-Russ relations back in time, and whats formed today lifestyle.
WIKI:
To the surprise of both the Soviets and the Finnish conservatives, the majority of the Finnish socialists did not support the Soviet invasion, but fought alongside their compatriots against the common enemy.
Within a month, the Soviet leadership began to consider abandoning the operation, and Finland's government was approached with preliminary peace feelers (via Sweden's government), first on January 29.
Until then, Finland had fought for its existence as an independent and democratic country.
So as I see, from the very beginning Finland chose there own way. STRONGLY opposing invading culture/mentality.
(NOW Russian community hardly as strong as in Estonia itc)
From my trip in 2004 to Finland, i visited Helsinki and Lapland, LOVE IT man !!!
This picture i took in the train station in the center of the city. (Small detail proving a big picture)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=emb&view=att&th=11bdf49241728ce8">http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1& ... 9241728ce8</a><!-- m -->
As I know ( from conversation wit Finish IT manager) theree even Gypsy community in Finland
but the main thing is the fact, that they are changed - modern, educated, lawful, they try to integrate and so on. So if even gypsies integrate in Finland that means only this:
Finland is strong democratic country that can change - bad ideology/views - by showing a good example of better living.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-20-2008
mihalich Wrote:Frederic Wrote:dear Michalich,Dear Frederic. In my opinion all of you are mistaken, in an example with Kaliningrad. Kaliningrad it simply city, and Ossetia this state in structure of Georgia and which has capital Tshinvalli. You confuse who this porridge has made. Ossetia and Abkhazia have decided to be separated and receive independence, it was not pleasant to Georgia. From it began the conflict. And Russia initially acted in a role of the peacemaker, and on anything does not apply. Ossets in Georgia, please want to live live, anybody against and words will not tell. Want to be independent, your right, Russia anybody to anything does not force, live.
If I am not mistaken, civilized countries evacuate their citizens from the territories of foreign countries, if there exists any threat for them. It should be also mentioned that this threat was imposed by the Russian government, who used its own citizens to justify its actions. Could you imagine the situation, when for examle Germany decides to issue German passports to the residents of Kaliningrad(former Keningsberg). I think residents of Kaliningrad would be happy to have EU passports. After this Germany starts provocations in Kaliningrad, permanent small clashes, bombardments, kills russian policemen and when at last Russia has no other option as to try to protect its territory and people, Germany invades Kaliningrad and then heads to Moscow, justifing its actions by the interests of its kaliningrad citizens. The situation is absurd. But this is just what Moscow did in Georgia. It should be also mentioned here, that Germany has more reasons to make this in Kaliningarad, then Russia had in South Ossetia, as South Ossetia has never been the part of Russia.
Now Georgia began to bomb Tskhinvali, and has opened direct fire on Russian peacemakers, that Russia should make if she has undertaken to support the world in this region. To run at top speed or strike back?
You speak that civilized countries evacuate the citizens. And what do civilized countries? If to take into account support of Georgia by all world it turns out that in civilized countries it is accepted to bomb installation a hailstones of peace inhabitants, to exhaust people in a shed and to burn there alive, to press the tank the grandmother at which on hands there were two children, to cut a throat to the child to which there was 1 year and 6 months. :quoi So do civilized countries? And in fact it is affairs of the Georgian special troops. Russia forced the Georgian militarians it to do? Or nevertheless praised America which all so zealously protect.
And input of the American armies to Iraq, also started there wars, these are proportional actions?
If not Russia, and America appeared in such situation. Also has made the same, I am confident, it would be applauded with all world.
Dear Michalich,
I have presented the hipotethical example of Kaliningrad. You have taken this exmple too straightforwarded. Its just a pattern to demonstrate the absurdity of russian arguments. I can give you more examples of such actions, not hipothetical, but historical. For example, the German invasion in Czech Republic was justified by the interests of Germans in Sudetenland, whom nazi Germany has provided wis German citizenship. In pre second World War World very few have anderstood the real aims and plans of Hitler. Many countries have been blaming Czechs of being so obstinate in resisting German demands on the Sudetenland. What had happened next we all know very well. Fortunatelly, today`s world is a bit different and everybody now acknowleges the potential threat imposed by the awakaning bear.
As regars the dramatic details of Georgian troops` atrocious actions towards peceful Ossetian population, I would reccomend you to use all the advanteges of the modern globalized world in terms of possibility of obtaining information from difffernt sources. Not a single independent source, has proved the declarations of russian officials concerning heavy civilian losses in Tskhinvali and attempts of genocide of Ossetian people. Don`t ignore the chance to get more balanced information.
As regards will of Georgian and Abkhaz people to live independently. In international law there exists a very clear concept of teritorial integrity. Georgia's territorial integrity has been acknowleged by the whole world, it has been stressed in dozens of UN security Council resolutions with the consent of Russina Federation. As regards people`s right to self-determination, I would like to remind you that Georgia is offering South Ossetia and Abkhazia very extended autonomy, were their rights and identity would be guaranteed by constitutional law. When we talk about people`s will, we should not leave behind the fact, that the hundreds of thousands of ethnic Georgian have been forced to flee away in early 90s from abkhazia and south ossetia and their will should be also taken into consideration.
And Finally, could you be so kind to tell me a few words about the will of Chechen people?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Lor Wrote:Did you ask yourself these questions?
1. The attack in Tskhinvali was EXAGGERATED? It is estimated that around 50 people died NOT 1600?
2. BEFORE this Georgian attack, the Ossetians(backed up with Russian guns and instigation) killed LOTS of Georgian civilians in the neighboring villages?
Lets put it this way:
If we know that Bin Laden is staying in some city - is it acceptable to destroy the hole city
(and kill 50-1600 innocent people) to kill him ?
Nope - no way. Not a single democratic country can decide that kind of action.
It shows clearly that Georgian government is not a reasonable one - neither is it democratic.
Lor Wrote:3. Russia attacked the whole country, killed lots of women and children, burnt woods and destroyed Georgian infrastructure OUTSIDE South Ossetia?
4.The Russian soldiers in the region were looting, vandalising and stealing from civilians?
5. The Russian soldiers killed LOTS of western journalists? Today our journalists cannot get through easily to South Ossetia because of the Russian army controlling the region?
It is called revenge or punishment - but I agree - it is not a democratic way as well
However It is pretty likely that casualties of those actions are smaller than in Tskhinvali.
You are somehow giving ( by mistake ?) an impression that when Georgia murdered
50-1600 of its own countryman it ONLY and when there dies 3 journalist it is LOT.
Lor Wrote:6. Russia is very SCARED of NATO at its borders?
7.You should visit different media sources, NOT only Russian!
You see historically NATO was set up as to fight against USSR - Now it is clearly showing that
it consider Russia to be the only possible enemy.
I don't believe that any country in the world could find that kind of situation to be nothing but scaring.
So Why we still have NATO at all - if not against russia ?
And hey, NATO is a BIG business for US ( hundreds of billions dollars yearly ). Because they want
to keep their military business running - they need to deliver "enemies"
Lor Wrote:Here you can see some FACTS:
There is no FACTS yet - there are so much rumors, lies , legends, propaganda etc that the fact
is impossible to reach. What comes to reliability of Russian media - In west it was estimated
to be more reliable than Georgian media. And there is very little independent information
about the situation.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lor - 08-20-2008
Lor Wrote:SiD i am not pro-Georgian, i just understand their position.
European Union has standards for its countries and SHARES investments, wealth, cultural values.
Russia concentrates most of their wealth in Moscow.
Officially Moscow spent 5 billion dollars on luxury items, despite the rest of the country.
I got to this blog by famous Russian designer Lebedev, I appreciate his sober view of life.
Viewer discretion advise (Some graphical shit outside of Moscow).
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tema.ru/jj/taldan.jpg">http://www.tema.ru/jj/taldan.jpg</a><!-- m --> (lavatory's)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tema.ru/jj/ep-s2.jpg">http://www.tema.ru/jj/ep-s2.jpg</a><!-- m --> (Outside of the restaurant)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tema.ru/jj/allroad.jpg">http://www.tema.ru/jj/allroad.jpg</a><!-- m --> (Federal road M-53)
Now tell me how can you motivate other countries to share the same lifestyle ???
/
Independent we both agreed in the Superpowers political game. Let's think at the outcome. I want Georgians, Ukrainians, Moldavians to have a BETTER life!!! At the end these republics should be able to chose the sphere of influence they want to belong to!! Whose side are they on?? IT's up to THEM to decide!!!!!!
I'd rather millions of times to be Western influenced than Russian influenced! I saw what Russian influence means! Russia TAKES and brings to Moscow, which is perfect for Russian but horrible for the republics, West SHARES and creates standards, investments and infrastructure. As simple as that!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Eka - 08-20-2008
independent Wrote:I dont agre with everything here. You have wondefull accesse to information sources and if you dont want you will not understand. But there is one topic I strongly agree with - Huge money in military complex. I have never heared about coraption in US military complexs ( Maybe some 1-2 facts) and have seen with may own eays Russia soldgers. and I hered what is there budget. It is clear that this war is huge money for Russian corupted govermant. Can somebody give facts that are opposing this? Its impposble to look at them , than figures of Russian military budget and undestand who is who in miliotary complexss of Russia.Lor Wrote:Did you ask yourself these questions?
1. The attack in Tskhinvali was EXAGGERATED? It is estimated that around 50 people died NOT 1600?
2. BEFORE this Georgian attack, the Ossetians(backed up with Russian guns and instigation) killed LOTS of Georgian civilians in the neighboring villages?
Lets put it this way:
If we know that Bin Laden is staying in some city - is it acceptable to destroy the hole city
(and kill 50-1600 innocent people) to kill him ?
Nope - no way. Not a single democratic country can decide that kind of action.
It shows clearly that Georgian government is not a reasonable one - neither is it democratic.
Lor Wrote:3. Russia attacked the whole country, killed lots of women and children, burnt woods and destroyed Georgian infrastructure OUTSIDE South Ossetia?
4.The Russian soldiers in the region were looting, vandalising and stealing from civilians?
5. The Russian soldiers killed LOTS of western journalists? Today our journalists cannot get through easily to South Ossetia because of the Russian army controlling the region?
It is called revenge or punishment - but I agree - it is not a democratic way as well
However It is pretty likely that casualties of those actions are smaller than in Tskhinvali.
You are somehow giving ( by mistake ?) an impression that when Georgia murdered
50-1600 of its own countryman it ONLY and when there dies 3 journalist it is LOT.
Lor Wrote:6. Russia is very SCARED of NATO at its borders?
7.You should visit different media sources, NOT only Russian!
You see historically NATO was set up as to fight against USSR - Now it is clearly showing that
it consider Russia to be the only possible enemy.
I don't believe that any country in the world could find that kind of situation to be nothing but scaring.
So Why we still have NATO at all - if not against russia ?
And hey, NATO is a BIG business for US ( hundreds of billions dollars yearly ). Because they want
to keep their military business running - they need to deliver "enemies"
Lor Wrote:Here you can see some FACTS:
There is no FACTS yet - there are so much rumors, lies , legends, propaganda etc that the fact
is impossible to reach. What comes to reliability of Russian media - In west it was estimated
to be more reliable than Georgian media. And there is very little independent information
about the situation.
So if to be under protctorate of somebody I prefer to be protected by less corupted and more respectfull(toward my national interests) country. It os my own opinion.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Lor Wrote:From my trip in 2004 to Finland, i visited Helsinki and Lapland, LOVE IT man !!!
This picture i took in the train station in the center of the city. (Small detail proving a big picture)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=emb&view=att&th=11bdf49241728ce8">http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1& ... 9241728ce8</a><!-- m -->
Pity that link You give don't work :?
Lor Wrote:Finland is strong democratic country that can change - bad ideology/views - by showing a good example of better living.
True - If You want someone to integrate - You need to give a reason to do so.
But then again we have one huge advantage - in finnish language every citizen is "suomalainen" = Finnish
It doesn't matter what ethnic group he/she present. At first place we are all Finnish - and ethnic background
have nothing to do with it.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lor - 08-20-2008
independent Wrote:Lor Wrote:Did you ask yourself these questions?
1. The attack in Tskhinvali was EXAGGERATED? It is estimated that around 50 people died NOT 1600?
2. BEFORE this Georgian attack, the Ossetians(backed up with Russian guns and instigation) killed LOTS of Georgian civilians in the neighboring villages?
Lets put it this way:
If we know that Bin Laden is staying in some city - is it acceptable to destroy the hole city
(and kill 50-1600 innocent people) to kill him ?
Nope - no way. Not a single democratic country can decide that kind of action.
It shows clearly that Georgian government is not a reasonable one - neither is it democratic. We don't live in a perfect world. On the other hand it's wrong to kill 50-1600 people but it's right to destroy a whole country?
Lor Wrote:3. Russia attacked the whole country, killed lots of women and children, burnt woods and destroyed Georgian infrastructure OUTSIDE South Ossetia?
4.The Russian soldiers in the region were looting, vandalising and stealing from civilians?
5. The Russian soldiers killed LOTS of western journalists? Today our journalists cannot get through easily to South Ossetia because of the Russian army controlling the region?
It is called revenge or punishment - but I agree - it is not a democratic way as well
However It is pretty likely that casualties of those actions are smaller than in Tskhinvali.How do you know? I thought there are no facts yet!
You are somehow giving ( by mistake ?) an impression that when Georgia murdered
50-1600 of its own countryman it ONLY and when there dies 3 journalist it is LOT. I'm not trying to give this impression,my point was Russians don't want our media around? Why if they have nothing to hide?
Lor Wrote:6. Russia is very SCARED of NATO at its borders?
7.You should visit different media sources, NOT only Russian!
You see historically NATO was set up as to fight against USSR - Now it is clearly showing that
it consider Russia to be the only possible enemy.
I don't believe that any country in the world could find that kind of situation to be nothing but scaring.
So Why we still have NATO at all - if not against russia ?
And hey, NATO is a BIG business for US( hundreds of billions dollars yearly ). Because they want
to keep their military business running - they need to deliver "enemies" As recent events show, NATO has 26 members, not one. The last summit NATO proved that US doesn't rule in there.I would trust a 26 countries decision opposed to one "democratic" president. Maybe that's why NATO still exist, because Putin doesn't seem democratic at all. Please inform yourself about Chechnya events. I would straighten NATO after that as well!!!
Lor Wrote:Here you can see some FACTS:
There is no FACTS yet - there are so much rumors, lies , legends, propaganda etc that the fact
is impossible to reach. What comes to reliability of Russian media - In west it was estimated
to be more reliable than Georgian media. And there is very little independent information
about the situation. OK fine, but this should work both ways, Russians just seem NOT to understand this. What can be brainwashing in the sources i gave? Are videos and photos, that speak for themselves..
You like arguments don't you?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lor - 08-20-2008
Independent HELP!!!!
Do you know how i can post that picture from my computer on this forum??? :quoi
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Eka Wrote:It is clear that this war is huge money for Russian corupted govermant. Can somebody give facts that are opposing this?
If we change it to be:
It is clear that this war is huge money also for Russian corupted govermant
Then we are pretty near to understand why military conflict are so "popular" ;-)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Lor Wrote:Independent HELP!!!!
Do you know how i can post that picture from my computer on this forum??? :quoi
Adding directly:
First You must upload it to some server having public access - e.g. photoalbums etc
then use "Img" button - It ads so called img-tag (similar to quote - /quote)
Between those tags paste the address (=URL) of Your photo.
Adding a link to it:
Use "URL" button instead
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Lor Wrote:You like arguments don't you?
Acceptable opinions so - yes I like Your arguments.
What concerns NATO we have a little different point of view. So I try to explain my
opinion more clearly.
I'm afraid that NATO indeed is already too big to be used to solve problems like this.
Confronting NATO and Russia means WW3 - and it is not an acceptable possibility.
So it leaves us to situation where we must have really bad case before it will react.
That however leaves small countries without any possibility for military aid in this
kind of situations. Lath is put very high. If there exists e.g. an smaller association,
lets say Baltic-Poland-Ukraine-Georgia it could immediately use military power
against threat. Simply because they are not member of "nuclear weapon club".
Indeed for russia that kind of alliance could meen a clear sign - don't cross the line.
Alliance powerfull enough to confront - without beeing afraid of WW3.
And in the other hand - Russia might accept that kind of power in neighbour countries
more easily than having NATO there
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-20-2008
independent Wrote:War is a huge money. When adding the word also, you meant that this war was a huge money for Georgia too, as I guess. I doubt that military actions on your territory, occupation forces deployed in the heart of the country, destroyed civilian infrastructure, blocking of main transport infrastructure lines, burning forests and tens of thousands of refugees impose big revenues. Besides, I would like to provide you with some data:Eka Wrote:It is clear that this war is huge money for Russian corupted govermant. Can somebody give facts that are opposing this?
If we change it to be:
It is clear that this war is huge money also for Russian corupted govermant
Then we are pretty near to understand why military conflict are so "popular" ;-)
The World Bank hails Georgia as the top anticorruption performer in its 2006 "Anticorruption in Transition-3" (ACT3) report.
The Millennium Challenge Corporation’s 2007 eligibility indicators for Georgia indicate that Georgia now satisfies the indicator regarding “Control of Corruption.” Georgia now scores above its peer group, an improvement from its 2006 scores.
95 % of Georgians surveyed said they had not paid a bribe to receive a public service in the last 12 months according to a February 2007 International Republican Institute Poll.
Source: EBRD-World Bank, Business Environment and Enterprise Performance Survey (BEEPS), Survey of all of the countries in the Former Soviet Union (CIS), Europe and Central Asia (ECA), as well as Turkey.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-20-2008
Frederic Wrote:independent Wrote:War is a huge money. When adding the word also, you meant that this war was a huge money for Georgia tooEka Wrote:It is clear that this war is huge money for Russian corupted govermant. Can somebody give facts that are opposing this?
If we change it to be:
It is clear that this war is huge money also for Russian corupted govermant
Then we are pretty near to understand why military conflict are so "popular" ;-)
Nope - I mean it is huge money for US weapon industry as well
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-20-2008
Thanks for clarification, but I have not got the information so far that USA is taking any military actions in this war.