independent Wrote:

Tamar Wrote:Dear Independent, I think you misunderstood, you know, "so united" - MEANS THAT WE STAND TOGETHER AS NEVER BEFORE IN OUR STROND DESIRE TO RETURN HISTORICAL TERRITORIES OF GEORGIA, TAKE THE BOOKS AND READ ABOUT SAMACHABLO AND ABKHAZIA, WILL YOU? And yes, I belive what I wrote, million times I do, as each Georgian these days does!

And You are telling me that S-Ossetians and Ahkbasians share that point of view ?
Because You want them to be part of Your unite Georgia - I really see an paradox in Your way of
thinking.

Lenus Wrote:There are people and their needs.
It must be respected.

independent Wrote:To have double citizenship is accepted in many countries - it doesn't indeed show nothing.

Tatiana_Kirovsk Wrote:Message for Georgian's "patriots"

Tatiana_Kirovsk Wrote:I can't remember any Russian military force OUTSIDE ours
borders for last 15 years

Lor Wrote:Completely blaming US, as you do is just a theory. There are hundreds of other theories that you might consider. Try :"Russia stops Georgia from becoming western, democratic and independent because they don't want to loose control over Caucasus". Just the fact that Russia is Georgia's neighbor, doesn't give them the right to deny this country's choice. Georgians don't want to be under Russian influence anymore, and Putin should respect their neighbor wishes and integrity. I've seen with my own eyes during childhood what Russian influence TRULY means!! Consider yourself lucky that you didn't!!

Lor Wrote:As i understand you are not very familiar with the Russian foreign affairs, because if you were, you wouldn't give them any credit for their moral values. What US did in Iraq, EU,US and NATO in Kosovo, is absolutely NOTHING to what Russia did to Eastern Europe countries and NOT only. Do you know what happened in Chechnya, Transnistria, Poland, Latvia, Estonia,Lithuania,Moldova, Romania,Ukraine? And i could give so many more examples. The part that bothers the most is that Russian citizens are unaware of what their leaders did to other people, how this invaded people felt and what they've been through. They just stayed at home enjoying the SHARE of the UNION. Had a good life and NEVER been a minority!!! So,citizens of Super powers don't know how it feels to be a citizen of a small country, but they like to TALK!!!

Lor Wrote:You talk about people getting what they want. You care about Ossetians wishes, but you ignore the Georgians. They don't want Russia anymore!! They want to be free!! Is that so hard to understand???

Lor Wrote:Bottom line is that super powers are always selfish and imperialistic!! Everything they do is for their own interests and never for the "poor little neighbor". Georgia- Russia conflict IS a political game in which I think, Russians crossed the line as they did it millions times before in the past!!

Lor Wrote:P.S No matter how much i disagree with the US foreign affairs, i must give them credit to all their organizations, for all the humanitarian help, for all the money, medicine, clothes, food and doctors they sent and still send around the world. Don't remember Russians doing so much for our Planet!!!

Salomo Wrote:(Sorry to not having had the time to read all 99 pages of this debate…)

A QUESTION TO ALL PRO-RUSSIANS HERE:

WHY are Russian troops still in Georgia?? Why did they bomb Gori and Georgian military bases? Why did they destroy the railway bridge??

Russian troops now occupy regions FAR BEYOND the original conflict area, South Ossetia!! Georgia is a sovereign country which has the right to have its army, its military bases, its military troops and ammunition wherever it wants.

Russia could, if it had wanted, have acted like a responsible “peace-keeping” super power. In that case, it would never have dropped a single bomb over “normal” Georgian soil, it would only had pushed the Georgian army out from South Ossetia, and after that had retired behind the Russian border, being ready to come back only if Georgian attacks against South Ossetia continue.

Instead, Russia occupies Georgia and does not want to retire. Have you any kind of explanation for this??

This has nothing more to do with who started the war. (My version: South Ossetians fired from Tskhinvali on neighbouring Georgian villages, Georgia had to do something to stop this, it overreacted shooting with heavy artillery on Tskhinvali, Russian troops chased Georgian army out from South Ossetia and penetrated on “proper” Georgian soil…) So please, no more answers in the style “But Georgians started the war, we had to come, blab la…)

Thanks Lor for the brilliant article. It explains a lot about Putin’s mentality.

PRO-RUSSIANS, ONE MORE THING: I have always wondered why it is practically IMPOSSIBLE to hear any Russian CRITICISING his/her country for overreacting, doing things wrong etc. We from “neutral” countries are used to look at many different kinds of information sources and to make our own conclusions. Criticism has been thought at school like a basic skill. Why do we hear American and all kind of other nationalities disagreeing with their government, but never Russians?! (Or those who do it will get killed, such as Anna Politkovskaya… rest in peace…)

In USA, for example, you have people like Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore who criticise the US mentality of handling foreign affairs in an imperialistic way. I have high respect for people like Chomsky, and I wish there would be that kind of intelligent people in every country, big or small.

On the first days of this Georgia-Russia conflict, on a Finnish newspaper discussion forum, there were many people who defended Russia’s right to intervene. Those days the discussion was about who started the war. Even myself started to think for a while if Georgia after all was the more aggressive part. But then Russian troops entered full-Georgian cities, and now the pro-Russian arguments are starting to fade, as everybody can see what the Russian troops are really doing.

I am from Helsinki, Finland, a country known for having been neutral in the “cold war” times and still believing in being neutral without military alliances. But now I guess the support for Finnish NATO membership will rise remarkably due to this crisis. For USA, the meaning of NATO might be defence against Islamic terrorism, Iran etc. but for all us countries bordering to Russia its meaning is clear: DEFENCE AGAINST RUSSIA, which still is the same brutal, aggressive, imperialistic super-power than at USSR times. I thought Russia had at least abandoned this manner to occupy neighbour countries, like it did in 1956, 1968 and 1979. But I was wrong.

Russia has been also a country hostile to its minority people, like many Finno-Ugric people in the north. Mari people at Volga river are been oppressed by their local Russian leaders. Khanti and Mansi people are losing their soil and their cultural heritage due to oil and gas fields. To not talk about Chechenya! I could call Mr Putin’s attitude in this Georgia crisis the epitome of hypocrisy, blaming Georgians for oppressing minorities, while the Russians have themselves killed hundreds of thousands of Chechens when those wanted to preserve their independence!

Why are people suggesting that Saakashvili should abdicate? Why did you not suggest that Putin himself should have abdicated after his genocide in Chechenya?!

In this crisis, Russians committed maybe after all errors: they raised very high every neighbour country’s interest for NATO Russia’s neighbours have such a bad experience about Russia, they want to defend themselves against the non-democratic ideology of Vladimir Putin…

I hope you Pro-Russians will answer me. I hope you UNDERSTAND why your neighbor states do not trust Russia.

I have indeed been harsh in my words but I am very interested in your answer. Thank you.

Tamar Wrote:Tatiana_Kirovsk wrote:
I can't remember any Russian military force OUTSIDE ours
borders for last 15 years

I THINK SHE MEANS SOVIET UNION, SHE STILL THINKS SHE LIVES IN SOVIET UNION!

independent Wrote:

Lor Wrote:Completely blaming US, as you do is just a theory. There are hundreds of other theories that you might consider. Try :"Russia stops Georgia from becoming western, democratic and independent because they don't want to loose control over Caucasus". Just the fact that Russia is Georgia's neighbor, doesn't give them the right to deny this country's choice. Georgians don't want to be under Russian influence anymore, and Putin should respect their neighbor wishes and integrity. I've seen with my own eyes during childhood what Russian influence TRULY means!! Consider yourself lucky that you didn't!!

I'm really not blaming US more than Russia - I only can see their point in this case being a little more
justified ( by meaning being more logical - but not justified - I should have been more precise in that )

Lor Wrote:As i understand you are not very familiar with the Russian foreign affairs, because if you were, you wouldn't give them any credit for their moral values. What US did in Iraq, EU,US and NATO in Kosovo, is absolutely NOTHING to what Russia did to Eastern Europe countries and NOT only. Do you know what happened in Chechnya, Transnistria, Poland, Latvia, Estonia,Lithuania,Moldova, Romania,Ukraine? And i could give so many more examples. The part that bothers the most is that Russian citizens are unaware of what their leaders did to other people, how this invaded people felt and what they've been through. They just stayed at home enjoying the SHARE of the UNION. Had a good life and NEVER been a minority!!! So,citizens of Super powers don't know how it feels to be a citizen of a small country, but they like to TALK!!!

Because of my nationality I'm pretty much familiar whit that. But are Russians to be blamed of that or
communism ? There is the point. I don't blame germans of Hitler - neither russians of Stalin.
There is no more USSR - thanks god.

Lor Wrote:You talk about people getting what they want. You care about Ossetians wishes, but you ignore the Georgians. They don't want Russia anymore!! They want to be free!! Is that so hard to understand???

I can agree that Georgians don't want russians to be there - its clear - they are independent.
I can agree that Ahkbasians and S-Ossetians don't want Georgians to be there - so let they be independent
as well and situation is over.

Lor Wrote:Bottom line is that super powers are always selfish and imperialistic!! Everything they do is for their own interests and never for the "poor little neighbor". Georgia- Russia conflict IS a political game in which I think, Russians crossed the line as they did it millions times before in the past!!

I really can't agree that it was russian crossing the line. I see it as an mistake made by Saakashvili. Once
crossed there remains no lines.

Lor Wrote:P.S No matter how much i disagree with the US foreign affairs, i must give them credit to all their organizations, for all the humanitarian help, for all the money, medicine, clothes, food and doctors they sent and still send around the world. Don't remember Russians doing so much for our Planet!!!

You know, I like americans a lot - but their politic I found to be to much oriented for american interest than common interest. But I also like russian people - even I found their politic can be blamed being even more
oriented to their interest.
What I think is very simply - let them play their own games. If other countries don't participate
but remain mugwump (?) the game will end some day.

Gift Wrote:Some words for those who shouted **Russia get away/Russia is SU and has SU standards/Russia has imperial mind/Russia wants to conquer Georgia/and other things like that**.

I'm an ordinary SEO manager and metal musician of 25 years old, living in Saint-Petersburg. Me, my relatives, my friends - do they want ANY war? NO.

I really think that army money could be better spent for education and social programs.

Insulting Russia and Russians - remember that you deal to ordinary people here, not our government. So your shouts "Get out of Georgia" - I'd accomplish it in a second - but I have no power, sorry

I have to repeat - if I want to be heard here - that's a dirty little war. There were lots of lies from both sides - that's true. There were lots of deaths from both sides - that's true. There is no victory for neither side in the end of all - that's true.

Remember there are people in Russia who really think that diplomacy is the way for solving conflicts. Remember there are people who may not support government's politics.
Remember that a great amount of Russians don't want ANY WARS.

Mariam Wrote:Listen I think I have explained u everuthing in an accurate and smooth way, with arguments, But seems that u DON'T want to hear what doesn't suit YOU. FOR YOU AGAIN I REPEAT. THIS IS A TERROTRY OF GEORGIA and if (???) OSETIANS and ABKHAZS DON't WANT TO LIVE HERE, RUSSIA IS HAVING THE BIGGEST TERRITORIES IN THE WORLD AND CAN SOMEHOW KEEP THOSE PEOPLE. BUT I THINK THAT THIS IS RUSSIANS PROVOCATIVE POLITICS AND THOSE PEOPLE REALLY are not AGAINS OF LIVING WITH US!!!

IS IT CLEAR FOR YOU????????????????

Tatiana_Kirovsk Wrote:I can't remember any Russian military force OUTSIDE ours
borders for last 15 years (let's leave alone history, you can dig out very
unplesant facts about different countries)..

Gift Wrote:Some words for those who shouted **Russia get away/Russia is SU and has SU standards/Russia has imperial mind/Russia wants to conquer Georgia/and other things like that**.

WE REFFER MILITARY, RUSSIANS LIVED in GEORIGA< and still are living in a peace - this just for your information.

I'm an ordinary SEO manager and metal musician of 25 years old, living in Saint-Petersburg. Me, my relatives, my friends - do they want ANY war? NO.

I'M ORDINARY CMO, 33 Years old, Living in TBILISI, and NONE OF THE GEORGIANS WISH TO HAVE A WAR< NONE OF US!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really think that army money could be better spent for education and social programs.

TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU, BUT IF YOUR NEIGHBOUR IS A PEACFULL ONE. IF NOT THEN YOU NEED SOMEHOW TO PROTECT YOURSELF.

Insulting Russia and Russians - remember that you deal to ordinary people here, not our government. So your shouts "Get out of Georgia" - I'd accomplish it in a second - but I have no power, sorry
DID YOU READ WHAT YOUR CITIZENS WROTE ABOUT US? ABOUT OUR PRESIDENT? PLEASE FIRST RESPECT YOURSELVES AND OTHERS AND THEN REQUEST RESPECT FROM OTHERS.

I have to repeat - if I want to be heard here - that's a dirty little war. There were lots of lies from both sides - that's true. There were lots of deaths from both sides - that's true. There is no victory for neither side in athe end of all - that's true.

AGREED

Remember there are people in Russia who really think that diplomacy is the way for solving conflicts.
WE WERE WORKING ON THIS DIRECTION ALMOST FOR 16 YEARS, and always wish to solve the problmes with diplomacy and negotiations.

Remember there are people who may not support government's politics.
HERE IS THE SAME. BUT RUSSIANS AGGRESSION NOWADAYS INCREASED THE POPULARITY OF OUR GOVERNMENT. Just to know. THIS IS A NATURE OF GEORGIANS> THEY ALWASY PROTECT THE PERSON WHICH IS OPPRESSED.

Remember that a great amount of Russians don't want ANY WARS.

independent Wrote:

Mariam Wrote:Listen I think I have explained u everuthing in an accurate and smooth way, with arguments, But seems that u DON'T want to hear what doesn't suit YOU. FOR YOU AGAIN I REPEAT. THIS IS A TERROTRY OF GEORGIA and if (???) OSETIANS and ABKHAZS DON't WANT TO LIVE HERE, RUSSIA IS HAVING THE BIGGEST TERRITORIES IN THE WORLD AND CAN SOMEHOW KEEP THOSE PEOPLE. BUT I THINK THAT THIS IS RUSSIANS PROVOCATIVE POLITICS AND THOSE PEOPLE REALLY are not AGAINS OF LIVING WITH US!!!

IS IT CLEAR FOR YOU????????????????

I'm afraid You don't get the point Youself - those people are living in those areas. It is not acceptable to tell
to them that they have to move or accept Your opinions of how to live there.
Can't You see - You are Yourself justifying Your opinion with argument You blame russia is using ?
= This minority must accept our way or move elsewhere (because we have historical rights to that territory

Just odd.