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+--- Thread: Georgia and South Ossetia at war (/thread-1703.html)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-17-2008
Lor Wrote:This argument has became more personal than it should be.
It's generally a verbal conflict between Russians and the rest. I really doubt the "independent" guy being truly independent, and would ask him please not to speak for the whole Europe! Dear Georgians you have the support of EU. Most of the people i got in contact with are amazed by the latest Russian acts, the people i talk about are EU representatives, diplomats or politically active people, not some guys on the internet that just talk for nothing!!
The main attitude in Europe is amazement towards the EU's lack of action. Why the "peacekeepers" in the region are Russians aand not UN real ones?
It is very clear what is going on in Georgia right now and is a pity that your Russian president, Medvedev is just a puppet.
He actually looks like someone who cannot handle this conflict, he promises peace but his army doesn't even care of what their leader says. Maybe because their real leader is Putin, that chose his toy for his own game.
Everybody should understand that talking on this forum doesn't change a thing! Russia is the aggressor and the whole worlds sees it! No matter how many excuses you find for this conflict you should understand once and for all that there are NONE to justify your latest actions, which are not human nor rightful nor sane!
p.s How many Russians are willing to host Ossetians in their own neighborhoods??
Recent polls show that 76% do not wish to have Ossetians in their homes.
.
You talk for something that is for sure. You are amased be EUs lack of action? It is called pragmatism. Real UNs peacekeepers
. Russia is part of UN just to remind you. And you are talking about peacekeepers who defended Kosovo? THANK YOU WERY MUTCH.I wasnt part of that pole for sure. By the way do you want to have georgians in your home? They have many refugees.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-17-2008
Lor Wrote:15000 Tanks- 30minutes? I really doubt your knowledge.
It was 150 tanks a lot of them got destroyed, chief commander of 58 army got shot and had to be transported to Vladikovkaz.
Army took some losses and needed reinforcement, more troops from Chechnya.
BTW - NATO can ship up to 12 thousand troops in any location on this globe in 14 hours. fact has been proved. no need to turn green.
Another thing - if you claim such powers, tell me why did you ask for British and US help with your sank submarines??? And why do they keep on sinking???
:lol: read once again, it was my respond to eka. I was sayin that ekas claims about Russian army are loughable. See? So who is brainwashed? :lol: . Take all spagety from your ears and we can talk.
:lol:
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-17-2008
SiD Wrote:15000 Tanks- 30minutes? I really doubt your knowledge.
It was 150 tanks a lot of them got destroyed, chief commander of 58 army got shot and had to be transported to Vladikovkaz.
Army took some losses and needed reinforcement, more troops from Chechnya.
BTW - NATO can ship up to 12 thousand troops in any location on this globe in 14 hours. fact has been proved. no need to turn green.
Another thing - if you claim such powers, tell me why did you ask for British and US help with your sank submarines??? And why do they keep on sinking???
OOO NATO can transport so many, so quikly and in any location on this globe? Parhaps you mean globe at your home? Otherwyse i doubt YOUR knowledge.
They can transport such forces only in the places there they have COMPLETE supremacy. Attempt to transport such forces in such short time to location on globe with full arsenal of modern weaponry would turn into suicide. Fact has not been proven and hopefully will not be ever.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mariam - 08-17-2008
independent Wrote:Tamar Wrote:So make conclusions yourself
I already take that into account - McCain popularity temporarily rise. But You don't understand
the reason, The reason is that You have made US people to be afraid of war.
I can't see any reason to pride Yourself in that. But when reading Georgians comments
it comes clear that You care only of Yourself
Listen I'm peas of your Russian mentality and approach to the case. Who should we take care right how? YOUrs, or Anns who just are making boolshit here? Russian forces are bomibing my country. They are killing my people? they are robbing my infrustructure, and destroying everything, roads, hospitals, even natural genocide they made here? Should I take care of you. You who with it's pesimistic approach are screaming here? Russian has to be punished by the whole word and it is already happening. They have to elarn the lesson, or other day once they will occupy your country (I have a doubt that you are finnish) your visions will be changed.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mariam - 08-17-2008
Ann from Russia Wrote:Russia does not afraid any one! Espessially stupid Americans and their main "monkey" Bush! :lol:What about your liliput presidents. ANomalia Russia is havinng two headed president: one liliput putin and second liliput medvedev. :lol:
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mariam - 08-17-2008
Ann from Russia Wrote:Geogians, don't be silent! "in Georgia broadcasting of all TV channels was prohibited (exept one Georgian channel with Saakashvilli's propoganda) The Internet was locked!" Wasn't it?! Wasn't it?! It was!!! It is you who do not to learn the truth!
Did you TV showed our TV, what our authorities said about conflict. Did they? As for the internet you blocked them for us. Don't you? All the expert on TV said thet your hackers ruined the our web sites? Is it novelty for u baby?
YOU ARE RUSSIAN PROPAGANDIST.I recallect there was a russian comunist or a pioneer whatever - Zoia Kosmodemansikaia. You look after her :lol:
People here pay atttention to the subject. None of Georgians so far said any bad words about Osettians (exept kokiti and his band). So when russian insists that Georiga made a genocied it lies. It's in their interest to persuade people in the truth of this, but the reality is absolutly the different. It was war between Georgia and Russia.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mariam - 08-17-2008
independent Wrote:IamGEORGIA Wrote:meanwhile, his neighbour, Georgia and Ukraine will become NATO members..
Believe me - You will not. It is allready discussed in several countries. And conclusion
is the same everywhere: Your change to be accepted is now almost zero.
You are dreaming about it. But I also know that soon this horrible day for you and for all russia will be on air. Watch it out!!!!!!1 :mrgreen:
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mariam - 08-17-2008
Look how can i take tour claims serius? If our soldiers are drunk mongolian ordas than how could they transport 1000-15000!!!! tanks into Georgia for 30 minutes!!! IN caucasus mauntains!!!! Every military in the world will be green from envy. That are only tanks not to mention troops and supply vihicles
. Our hordes are FAST!!! I suppose every our vihickle ( and tanks) are as fast as formula 1 speed car . Well thank you for such high opinion about our forces.[/quote]I do have a question: Are you - Russians that stupid? All of you? Now after your comments I realized that you are not having only one big problme - uncivilization, you have alsow another big problem - You lack the intelect, you are undeveloped. :livre
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mariam - 08-17-2008
Lor Wrote:This argument has became more personal than it should be.
It's generally a verbal conflict between Russians and the rest. I really doubt the "independent" guy being truly independent, and would ask him please not to speak for the whole Europe! Dear Georgians you have the support of EU. Most of the people i got in contact with are amazed by the latest Russian acts, the people i talk about are EU representatives, diplomats or politically active people, not some guys on the internet that just talk for nothing!!
The main attitude in Europe is amazement towards the EU's lack of action. Why the "peacekeepers" in the region are Russians aand not UN real ones?
It is very clear what is going on in Georgia right now and is a pity that your Russian president, Medvedev is just a puppet.
He actually looks like someone who cannot handle this conflict, he promises peace but his army doesn't even care of what their leader says. Maybe because their real leader is Putin, that chose his toy for his own game.
Everybody should understand that talking on this forum doesn't change a thing! Russia is the aggressor and the whole worlds sees it! No matter how many excuses you find for this conflict you should understand once and for all that there are NONE to justify your latest actions, which are not human nor rightful nor sane!
p.s How many Russians are willing to host Ossetians in their own neighborhoods??
Recent polls show that 76% do not wish to have Ossetians in their homes.
.
I totally agree with you. INdefendent is defendent on Russians. Presindents of Europe are supporting us and condemn russians aggression toward us. And this guy is trying to prove the opposite.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lenus - 08-17-2008
Greetings everyone,
I am amased by Russian logic.
To draw an analogue - if someone is being arrested for an breaking & entering, the argument he brings up is: but my neighbour is a prositute!
Bringing Iraq issue into this has too litle to do with any common sense.
Sadam Hussyen was condemned by UN resolution. Do you have anything like that in hand to compare yourself to USA actions? So, please call a spade a spade and relieve us of your ignorant paralells. All it indicates is a hidden inferiority complex caused by Kosovo and Iraq events.
Oh yes, I forgot about MIlosevic. Apparently he was only killing "wrong" civilians? Prive me wrong and show me one condemnation by Russian officials, please.
America showed he doens't care for us? for Russia, the "as if" Superpower?? We will show them!
Ukraine, get ready to be next!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Alenika - 08-17-2008
Lor Wrote:This argument has became more personal than it should be.
It's generally a verbal conflict between Russians and the rest. I really doubt the "independent" guy being truly independent, and would ask him please not to speak for the whole Europe! Dear Georgians you have the support of EU. Most of the people i got in contact with are amazed by the latest Russian acts, the people i talk about are EU representatives, diplomats or politically active people, not some guys on the internet that just talk for nothing!!
The main attitude in Europe is amazement towards the EU's lack of action. Why the "peacekeepers" in the region are Russians aand not UN real ones?
It is very clear what is going on in Georgia right now and is a pity that your Russian president, Medvedev is just a puppet.
He actually looks like someone who cannot handle this conflict, he promises peace but his army doesn't even care of what their leader says. Maybe because their real leader is Putin, that chose his toy for his own game.
Everybody should understand that talking on this forum doesn't change a thing! Russia is the aggressor and the whole worlds sees it! No matter how many excuses you find for this conflict you should understand once and for all that there are NONE to justify your latest actions, which are not human nor rightful nor sane!
p.s How many Russians are willing to host Ossetians in their own neighborhoods??
Recent polls show that 76% do not wish to have Ossetians in their homes.
.
You are mistaken about russian prople willing to have osetin people at their houses. WE ARE WILLING!!
They've lost their houses and we are READY to provide them with. And ordinary russian people and government. If you watch TV carefully, you shoud know that Russian government is in process of reconstruction of osetin social buildings and creation of new infractructure where would be possible to live.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Trinidad - 08-17-2008
I wrote this a few days ago and pasted it in this forum. Because it seems that my view is correct I have copied what i wrote and pasted it again.
What i expected to happen is that Russia will not withdraw no matter what. READ below what i said a few days ago. HERE IT IS
It's all pretty sad. Bad words flying back and forth between those with opposing views. In my view, the whole affair seems to be Russian orchastrated; mass tank build up on Georgian border for many months now for a "military excercises"; yes, one massive ONE. Russian nationalism is alive and strong, and a little military excercise in the name of stopping "genocide commited by bad Georgians" would be perfect to heighten Russian patriotism. It will have many unquantifiable positives for Russia;
1. It will marginalise and demonise even more so, any Russians involved in or who support "The Other Russia-Kasporov"
2. With the Russian press basically state controlled, any open minded Journalist still left alive in Russia would be too scared to show any "other side" to the official Russian story. Any Russian citizens sitting on the fence will slide very much into the Russian nationalists way of thinking.
3. With military strikes on EU or US targets a possibility, it will be justified by the Russian masses and get their support.
It wouldn't surprise me if Medvedev knew nothing of the Russian plan and is just reacting to info and instruction from Russian Intelligence arms and military. Seeing he is the Russian front man, it will make life easier for him if he only knew the events as; "Bad Georgians, Unprovoked Georgain attacks, Georgians commiting genocide, Russians saving the day, righteously."
ANyway, as some other commentators have said, God knows all, one day when we die we all may know the real truth. I may be wrong, but if not close to 100% right am sure i am more than 50% right. If i am more right than wrong, then Putin has some serious blood on his hands. He sacrificed many Ossetians to claim "Georgian acts of genocide" He sacrificed a few Russian lives too. And then he allowed Russian Troops in, and along with savage militia to vandalise plunder and rape. My guess is, that in 4 days, Russian militia have committed many times more atrocities and acts in contraventions of the Geneva convention than the USA and EU combined in the last 15 yrs.
I also believe that Russia cannot afford to leave Georgian territory now, they are staying behind to provoke an attack to justify staying. In leaving, they will expose all their atrocities committed, they cannot afford to do this. I am afraid this is a gloves off match
Putin's God complex is going to be a serious blow to Eurasia and the world.
This definitely is little to do about Georgia, and more to do about ideology.
Democracy Vs Totalitarianism
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lenus - 08-17-2008
About civilian casualties:
There was a situation when shells were flying from both sides. And who is to be convinced that Russian weapon was more sophisticated to kill, including civilians.
Mr Putin was too hasty to declare the exact number fo Civilians massacred by Georgians, alas there are no evidnece at all presented except HardTalk's Ivanov's Rather hesitating respond - "you can go there and you can talk to withnesses".
Allright, let's analyse the reasons for invading Georgia by Russia.
First of all, it seems to me that Russians ar so desparate and deliberate to find casus belli, that they don't have just one reason, but a compbination of bits of several reasons.
1) Georgians were fighting Russian Citizens.
My answer is, that those ctozens were granted Russian passport and were told to start shooting at Georgian villages. Distorting UN Charter regarding "protection of citizens" doesn't seace to amaze me. Yes I know it would have been a n argument in Russian circles, but clearly nowhere in the world!
If you citizens behave badly abroad, and there are hostilities, enter the zone, save your citizens and evacuate them, then call for international reaction to punish the "agressor".
2) Georgians were fighting and killing Peacekeepers.
I need to know exactly who was killed, before I accept this argument. Do we have a list? were they on the apprived list by Georgian Government?? Because that's what wa required to validate their mandate in South Ossetia. Otherwise, its so easy to bring Peacekeeprs uniforms, and put them on the dead soldiers. Russia must know that in civilized society, Reputations counts. They clearly have no chance where reputation is brought in.
3) Georgian killed 2000 civilians. Quoting Mr Churkin, "what else do you need to call this a Genocide?".
Firstly, can we agree on the number please? Is it 1500 or 1600 or 2000??? Any more offers?
Who counted them? Where is the list? Why international observers are not allowed in the region to verify these facts?
To be honest, if I were an ossetian, I would have been fleed from Russia,for not to become a proving statistics today. That is of course if someone didn't inform Russians, that corpse age is also an issue.
So, Russians have avery difficult task at hand - they need to find 2000 Ossetian bodies, Prove the killing was done by Georgians, and verify those by International Observers. To quote my favourrite scene form a film, "You bet your bullocks to the burndance" you are not finding it.
Now, what is the reason again, you invaded Georgia? There is no reason. Only half-wit accusations. No Evdience, except circumstancial ones.
And if we come to count circumstancial ones... well, Russia has a tonnes of explaining to do.
1) Why were Russian troops having a military excercise right next to South ossetian Border?
2) Why Russia restored, despite US, UN irging them not to, a railway line leading to Kodoru Gorge in Abkhazia?
3) How on earth they lost Several Air-Planes and Ten's of Tanks?
4) Why there are several troops reported to be already on the territory of South Ossetia?
Russian use a sledgehammer to kill a fly then pretend it wasnt them. Pathetic.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Trinidad - 08-17-2008
Russia blew up 200 of its own people in 2 Moscow buildings in the late 90's to justify going into Chechnya again. They needed to blame the Chechens for provoking them into coming back into take Chechnya. I agree that Chechnya belongs to Russia and belonged to Russia, but why kill your own people and lie about it and blame it on the Chechen seperatists
Russia doesn'y care about peoples lives or freedom of people. Russia provoked the Georgians. Russia started this and wont stop. They will next justify for security reasons that it is their right to take Ukraine.
Sorry, but Putin is the devil.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lex - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:Greetings everyone,
I am amased by Russian logic.
To draw an analogue - if someone is being arrested for an breaking & entering, the argument he brings up is: but my neighbour is a prositute!
Bringing Iraq issue into this has too litle to do with any common sense.
Sadam Hussyen was condemned by UN resolution. Do you have anything like that in hand to compare yourself to USA actions? So, please call a spade a spade and relieve us of your ignorant paralells. All it indicates is a hidden inferiority complex caused by Kosovo and Iraq events.
Oh yes, I forgot about MIlosevic. Apparently he was only killing "wrong" civilians? Prive me wrong and show me one condemnation by Russian officials, please.
America showed he doens't care for us? for Russia, the "as if" Superpower?? We will show them!
Ukraine, get ready to be next!
I'not amazed by Russian logic. They were placed there according to UN resolution as peasemaking forces and according to their status they must prevent any military actions from any side and protect the side under attack. But they hadn't enough forces to protect Tskhinvali from artillery systems (Grad) - and even themselves ( 13 dead and 150 wounded). That was a reason for entering of the additional forces. Another reason - 80% of the South Ossetians are Russian citizens. There was no other way for Russia except to protect South Ossetia against invasion.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lenus - 08-17-2008
Yes, but my point re logic was about Bringing Iraq issue in this.
Leave Iraq alone, if US invasion wasnt justified, your crime cannot be justified by it anyway.
There were not RUSSIAN Peacekeepers in the region. There were three groups- Russian, Georgian, OSCE.
Did Georgians shoot all of them or only those who were shooting Georgian side?
I need a list not numbers, Can you bring them up?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lex - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:Yes, but my point re logic was about Bringing Iraq issue in this.
Leave Iraq alone, if US invasion wasnt justified, your crime cannot be justified by it anyway.
There were not RUSSIAN Peacekeepers in the region. There were three groups- Russian, Georgian, OSCE.
Did Georgians shoot all of them or only those who were shooting Georgian side?
I need a list not numbers, Can you bring them up?
Georgian Peacekeepers attacked Russian. And how OSCE protected South Ossetia?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lex - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:Yes, but my point re logic was about Bringing Iraq issue in this.
Leave Iraq alone, if US invasion wasnt justified, your crime cannot be justified by it anyway.
There were not RUSSIAN Peacekeepers in the region. There were three groups- Russian, Georgian, OSCE.
Did Georgians shoot all of them or only those who were shooting Georgian side?
I need a list not numbers, Can you bring them up?
What list you need?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Karl.in.eu - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:Yes, but my point re logic was about Bringing Iraq issue in this.
Leave Iraq alone, if US invasion wasnt justified, your crime cannot be justified by it anyway.
There were not RUSSIAN Peacekeepers in the region. There were three groups- Russian, Georgian, OSCE.
Did Georgians shoot all of them or only those who were shooting Georgian side?
I need a list not numbers, Can you bring them up?
Hear hear
uper
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lenus - 08-17-2008
lex
I NEED A LIST OF CAUSALTIES
Peacekeepers:
NAMES< FAMILY NAMES< RANKS, please.
Civilians:
NAMES> FAMILY NAMES< AGE<, etc cause of death.
CAN YOU SUPPLY IT??
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lex - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:lex
I NEED A LIST OF CAUSALTIES
Peacekeepers:
NAMES< FAMILY NAMES< RANKS, please.
Civilians:
NAMES> FAMILY NAMES< AGE<, etc cause of death.
CAN YOU SUPPLY IT??
This lists would appear in several days (maybe today - I don't know). Georgia and Russia would exchange the lists of dead.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lex - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:lex
I NEED A LIST OF CAUSALTIES
Peacekeepers:
NAMES< FAMILY NAMES< RANKS, please.
Civilians:
NAMES> FAMILY NAMES< AGE<, etc cause of death.
CAN YOU SUPPLY IT??
Sorry, there's the list - but on Russian <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.regnum.ru/news/1040494.html">http://www.regnum.ru/news/1040494.html</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Eka - 08-17-2008
Dont forget Beslan Tragedy, when dranken russians generals killd tenth and hundreds of children and women, this kind of things help then strengthening there power adn influance. There goverment is psixopathic. there are dangerous for world, they kill there own people and its impossible to askape from there komunistic propaganda, dont listen them.
Fact that russian tanks were in 30 minits in Georgia does not indicate that it is gareat army, its only indicate that there have been THERE AND PREPARING FOR INVASION.
Russian chanels are brodcasting brave solgers. Reality is dangerous - they are steeling everything they can take with them. At this moment I am watching it in TV. Russian general is so druanken that his face is swallen and red/bly, his name is NUIKOLAI BORISOV.
list of victims will be soon from GEorgian side as we have information.
We have accsess to russsian web, but it is not information it is PROPAGANDA. When I was youngI was so propagnded about afganistan, Chile and so on.... by sovie.t propaganda
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Eka - 08-17-2008
We have information that russian controlled tskinvali is robbed from russinas much more than Gori. There are not so many int, jornalistsas in Gori. Russians are not giving permission to international persons enter tskinval, there are "cleaning" spave there. SOS!! WOrld will have not have inforamtion about what happened there.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lenus - 08-17-2008
Lex,
You make me smile, you hesitate like Ivanov on HARDTalk,
It appears you havent even seen this list, but you very prompt in accusaions to Georgian government.
Next, how is it possible, that Only Russians were shot, werent OSCE and others were there?
You realise now a commons sense demands you need to show the list of Peacekeepers approved for being in the Conflict Region. Can you do that?
Can you copy the list here please, even if its in Russian. Thanks.