Tutor Wrote:Well, I'm afraid we're never going to learn the truth about all this. Russian TV channels try to show Georgia as a monster attacking the innocent. Meanwhile in Georgia it's the same but against Russia. Some of my friends from SO wrote that it was Georgia who attacked them. At the same time, my very close friend (she is a Russian) wrote me that the same night she heard bombings not far from Gori (she is still in Georgia). So, it's difficul tu judge.
I believe the problem is not about who started the war but about 'how to help people'. I hope both Russia and Georgia are sensible enough to realize that the road the situation was advancing is the dead end.

solo Wrote:It is funny that russians don't even bother to cover their real aims.

Caucasus Wrote:

^^^^ Wrote:listen, how can you tell who is bombing. can you say who started shooting first? i mean, what facts do you have? video? what do you see there. the fact is both sides were shooting.

I can tell who is bombing and shelling by the direction of from missiles come. Or did you mean Ossetins fired
from GRAD to themselves and then blamed peaceful Georgian Army that had come there with flowers in hand and not with tanks, Grads, missiles and shells? On video I see that Georgian troops coming to Ossetia breaking signed by Georgia international peace agreements. I see that Grads are working at the blast fire mode. There were no Ossetian Grads there. Grads are used for total destruction of AREAS, and not a sinle TARGETS. When Georgians used Grads they wanted to destroy Tskhinval and to make Ossetins leave Ossetia.

^^^^ Wrote:and i can assure you, that russian soldiers are still robbing georgian (and not only georgian) civilians, cities and robbing and demolishing military buildings outside South Ossetia

You are not in Gori then. are you in gori? If you had a possibility to watch truly channels which one? u-tube, ja?(or at least three channels with different opinions) you would know that Russian army has already officially passed the control over Gori to Georgian authorities. no my dear friend russians are still there, and they are in poti, senaki and mestia. I have watched enough, and not only on tv http://www.georgia-lies.narod.ru And this was made after the joint inspection (Russian+Georgian) of this little poor town which was robbed by little, poor russian soldiers, who also robbed churches in nikozi and ruisi. by the way on russian post ossetians robbed canadian, georgian and russian (!) journalists, they took away their cars and no single russian soldier tried to stop their ossetian friend !!! . Electricity and water comes to Gori without problems . The buildings are in good stateIn Gori? sure, would you like to live in one of them?. If the Georgian authorities cannot cope with Georgian robbers it is not problem of Russian armygeorgian authorities cannot cope with any robber in gori , because they are not allowed there yet. There is no Russian Army in Gori. It is not far from it. Ask it to come back. But do it officially.your sarcazm is briliant, but you can dream as much as you want, i do not mind.
As for military targets that (by your words) are being demolished by Russian army - do not use them for gathering troops, for keepeng there artillery or tanks (in short Range from Ossetia)... whole georgia is in short range from south ossetia, pal, ossetia is the heart of georgia. what do you call short range. do you have a map? do you know where poti is? that means georgian state should stop existance just because you want that so? Do not use them for setting up a fire point directed against Ossetia. And all will be OK. And sign up an agreement of non-use of force in resolving conflicts. It was easy not to use YOUR Army against other country casus clinicus. which country? i thought russia used it's army against georgia. . You believed that you are STRONGER that is why you attacked... You were miscalculatedwe are stronger than who, russians? no, georgians do not think so . When the similar troops nobody ran away, but you can not compare russian and georgian army, I am sure you can count very well came you just ran away.

^^^^ Wrote:yesterday you told me, that georgian snipers were killing civilians in Tskhinvali. have you seen any sniper (georgian or russian) shooting civilians? what is the aim of shooting civilians? I do not think this is right even from the military point of view. but i do not know what are russian snipers doing, but i can say this is not what georgians do.

I saw the video of killed Georgian sniper. And do you know, he had a cellular phone with him, and his mother called and she was told her son is dead. She did not know he wason the war. She thought he was working. Poor woman. I really sorry. Think about your mothers, what you are doing to them by playing a great NATO warriors. so, if the soldier would not be a nato warrior, then mothers of killed sons will be happy in the same case, ja? tell me why is russia so concerned about NATO? so, you saw dead georgian soldier and you decided he was killing civilians. this is very logical , very ! yes, georgian army has snipers, so what? does russian snipers kill civilians? what a bullshit! Sure man, war is the worst thing on the world, I am sorry for killed soldiers and civilians (whatever their nationality is, georgian, russian, or ossetian)
what is the aim of shooting civilians? The aim - is just the same as when bombing them. To make the Ossetins leave Ossetia. Nobody likes when someone is constantly shooting at you.

solo Wrote:

Caucasus Wrote:

^^^^ Wrote:listen, how can you tell who is bombing. can you say who started shooting first? i mean, what facts do you have? video? what do you see there. the fact is both sides were shooting.

I can tell who is bombing and shelling by the direction of from missiles come. Or did you mean Ossetins fired
from GRAD to themselves and then blamed peaceful Georgian Army that had come there with flowers in hand and not with tanks, Grads, missiles and shells? On video I see that Georgian troops coming to Ossetia breaking signed by Georgia international peace agreements. I see that Grads are working at the blast fire mode. There were no Ossetian Grads there. Grads are used for total destruction of AREAS, and not a sinle TARGETS. When Georgians used Grads they wanted to destroy Tskhinval and to make Ossetins leave Ossetia.

^^^^ Wrote:and i can assure you, that russian soldiers are still robbing georgian (and not only georgian) civilians, cities and robbing and demolishing military buildings outside South Ossetia

You are not in Gori then. are you in gori? If you had a possibility to watch truly channels which one? u-tube, ja?(or at least three channels with different opinions) you would know that Russian army has already officially passed the control over Gori to Georgian authorities. no my dear friend russians are still there, and they are in poti, senaki and mestia. I have watched enough, and not only on tv http://www.georgia-lies.narod.ru And this was made after the joint inspection (Russian+Georgian) of this little poor town which was robbed by little, poor russian soldiers, who also robbed churches in nikozi and ruisi. by the way on russian post ossetians robbed canadian, georgian and russian (!) journalists, they took away their cars and no single russian soldier tried to stop their ossetian friend !!! . Electricity and water comes to Gori without problems . The buildings are in good stateIn Gori? sure, would you like to live in one of them?. If the Georgian authorities cannot cope with Georgian robbers it is not problem of Russian armygeorgian authorities cannot cope with any robber in gori , because they are not allowed there yet. There is no Russian Army in Gori. It is not far from it. Ask it to come back. But do it officially.your sarcazm is briliant, but you can dream as much as you want, i do not mind.
As for military targets that (by your words) are being demolished by Russian army - do not use them for gathering troops, for keepeng there artillery or tanks (in short Range from Ossetia)... whole georgia is in short range from south ossetia, pal, ossetia is the heart of georgia. what do you call short range. do you have a map? do you know where poti is? that means georgian state should stop existance just because you want that so? Do not use them for setting up a fire point directed against Ossetia. And all will be OK. And sign up an agreement of non-use of force in resolving conflicts. It was easy not to use YOUR Army against other country casus clinicus. which country? i thought russia used it's army against georgia. . You believed that you are STRONGER that is why you attacked... You were miscalculatedwe are stronger than who, russians? no, georgians do not think so . When the similar troops nobody ran away, but you can not compare russian and georgian army, I am sure you can count very well came you just ran away.

^^^^ Wrote:yesterday you told me, that georgian snipers were killing civilians in Tskhinvali. have you seen any sniper (georgian or russian) shooting civilians? what is the aim of shooting civilians? I do not think this is right even from the military point of view. but i do not know what are russian snipers doing, but i can say this is not what georgians do.

I saw the video of killed Georgian sniper. And do you know, he had a cellular phone with him, and his mother called and she was told her son is dead. She did not know he wason the war. She thought he was working. Poor woman. I really sorry. Think about your mothers, what you are doing to them by playing a great NATO warriors. so, if the soldier would not be a nato warrior, then mothers of killed sons will be happy in the same case, ja? tell me why is russia so concerned about NATO? so, you saw dead georgian soldier and you decided he was killing civilians. this is very logical , very ! yes, georgian army has snipers, so what? does russian snipers kill civilians? what a bullshit! Sure man, war is the worst thing on the world, I am sorry for killed soldiers and civilians (whatever their nationality is, georgian, russian, or ossetian)
what is the aim of shooting civilians? The aim - is just the same as when bombing them. To make the Ossetins leave Ossetia. Nobody likes when someone is constantly shooting at you.

abkhazs were cutting heads of georgian civilians and playing football by cutted heads (in gagra), they cut people apart and wrote on their bodies - georgian meat, for free. and russian regular army was supporting them. all those facts are taken on video, but i do not think you have seen them

russia is trying to separate georgia, i know there are ossetians who want to live in russia, but there are other people, inhabitants of that region, who want to stay in georgia, and the number of the last ones is much more large.

russian politics has nothing to do with peacekeeping operation now, they are just destroing my country, they were going to do more, but. . . you know what happened next.

and, russians are now behaiving like mongols. robbing, killing people, setting mines in cities (this is an important part of a peacekeeping operation, you know) and burning civilians houses.

Caucasus Wrote:

^^^^ Wrote:listen, how can you tell who is bombing. can you say who started shooting first? i mean, what facts do you have? video? what do you see there. the fact is both sides were shooting.

I can tell who is bombing and shelling by the direction of from missiles come. Or did you mean Ossetins fired
from GRAD to themselves and then blamed peaceful Georgian Army that had come there with flowers in hand and not with tanks, Grads, missiles and shells? On video I see that Georgian troops coming to Ossetia breaking signed by Georgia international peace agreements. I see that Grads are working at the blast fire mode. There were no Ossetian Grads there. Grads are used for total destruction of AREAS, and not a sinle TARGETS. When Georgians used Grads they wanted to destroy Tskhinval and to make Ossetins leave Ossetia.

^^^^ Wrote:and i can assure you, that russian soldiers are still robbing georgian (and not only georgian) civilians, cities and robbing and demolishing military buildings outside South Ossetia

You are not in Gori then. If you had a possibility to watch truly channels (or at least three channels with different opinions) you would know that Russian army has already officially passed the control over Gori to Georgian authorities. [url]http://www.georgia-lies.narod.ru[/url] And this was made after the joint inspection (Russian+Georgian) of this little poor town. Electricity and water comes to Gori without problems. The buildings are in good state. If the Georgian authorities cannot cope with Georgian robbers it is not problem of Russian army. There is no Russian Army in Gori. It is not far from it. Ask it to come back. But do it officially.
As for military targets that (by your words) are being demolished by Russian army - do not use them for gathering troops, for keepeng there artillery or tanks (in short Range from Ossetia)... Do not use them for setting up a fire point directed against Ossetia. And all will be OK. And sign up an agreement of non-use of force in resolving conflicts. It was easy not to use YOUR Army against other country. You believed that you are STRONGER that is why you attacked... You were miscalculated. When the similar troops came you just ran away.

^^^^ Wrote:yesterday you told me, that georgian snipers were killing civilians in Tskhinvali. have you seen any sniper (georgian or russian) shooting civilians? what is the aim of shooting civilians? I do not think this is right even from the military point of view. but i do not know what are russian snipers doing, but i can say this is not what georgians do.

I saw the video of killed Georgian sniper. And do you know, he had a cellular phone with him, and his mother called and she was told her son is dead. She did not know he wason the war. She thought he was working. Poor woman. I really sorry. Think about your mothers, what you are doing to them by playing a great NATO warriors.
what is the aim of shooting civilians? The aim - is just the same as when bombing them. To make the Ossetins leave Ossetia. Nobody likes when someone is constantly shooting at you.

John K Wrote:

solo Wrote:dear john k

I am very sorry to hear that from a citizen of kazakhstan.
I am sorry that you can see nothing, or you do not want to see anything, or you have watched only russian channels (that's may be the worst version).

This conflict in samachablo (or s. ossetia) as well as conflict in abkhazia was inspired by russians, and believe me the aim of russian federation surely is not connected with the wish to make ossetians free and happy. It is funny that russians don't even bother to cover their real aims.

asnwer me, please, how independent your country is and how much does it depend on russia?

what do you think about putin or medvedev? How do you think, all that they have done in chechnia, beslan is normal? are kazakhstan business people much concerned about that? Should i be thinking that they have stopped business relationship with russia after chechnia, or may be they did that after beslan?

what do you think about more then 260000 refugees from abkhazia, that are not allowed to return to their home place? why is this conflict so frozen? who needs that? who is bying georgians houses and lands in abkhazia?

So, my dear friend from kazakhstan, your people can invest or they can not, it's up to them, but mind of what you are talking before you accuse someone in things like nacizm.

by the way, speaking of hitler and nacizm, there are no skinheads killing and beating non - georgian population in georgia, but hopefully you have heard of some that violate peoples life in russia.

Please be sure that i'm always try to understand both sides of the story. I watch BBC, CNN, Euronews, Fox, even as russian channels. And I see that in Russia there's only one point of view. And the WEST gives only one point of view. That's why I can say that i have my own opinion.

I'm absolutely agree that the violation of borders is unacceptable. BUT - there's situation when it has to be. I'm absolutaly sure that if Russia wouln't broke into South Ossetia, we would still has a fighting.

And there was not 2000 civils died in Tsinkvali, but much much more. And from Georgian side too! Do you want it? Georgians wanted to fight witn whole nation! That could be a bi mistake! As it was Chechnya for Russia.

Do you want more georgians to be dead? You friends and your relatives could be among them! I'm sure you don't. It's better to live in peace!

I understand that South Ossetia will never survive without help o Russia. As Kosovo withot USA. It's absolutaly the same situations. Double standards of the WEST. And Georgia is just a pawn in the game. USA is don't care about Georgia, it's the politics. Do you understdand that thing?

I'l answer your questions:
Kazakhstan is much closer to Russia than to USA. But they both are strategic partners. It's the East rules of the game. We started building the oil-pipe to China, and that fact Russia don't like at all. But we started.

Kazakhstan as ussual plays with neutrality. Our government still did't said any attitude towards this conflict. Is i said - it's the East games That's why i can say that we much much more independent than Georgia from USA, or Belarus from Russia.

Chechnya is a great problem of Russia, And it appeared because of Yeltsin. I graduated from international relations faculty, that's why i know history well. The war in Chechnya is also heinous crime, both from Russian and Chechnya sides.

Talking about business - all i know that some people decided to stop all investments to Georgia. And as i said, in Chechnya both side were criminals, then no need to ignore one of them.

Speaking about Abkhaziya - it's very pitty about refugees. But only way to get Abkhaziya back - is to negotiate. It's better to be alive, than to be killed. Am i wrong?

Caucasus Wrote:Pay attention that there are no other people here on this EU forum but only Georgian, Russian, Kazak, Ossetian and other people of former USSR... There is no German, Dutch, French or Enlishman here. They really have a very little interest in the war which is VERY important to us... I think that it is a SIGN... Think about it.
Похоже кроме нас самих мы никому не нужны. И я не представляю как грузины смогут без Москвы, а Москва без Тбилиси. Душе народа можно причинить боль,но украсть ее думаю невозможно. Я не хочу верить, что все это время начиная с момента когда русские штыки защитили грузин от истребления ( аналогичного тому , что произошло в Армении) грузины просто притворялись друзьями и братьями... слава Богу мои друзья не дают мне этого забыть, а их у меня много... и армяне, и таджики, и адыги, и поляки, и украинцы, и ПРЕДСТАВЬТЕ СЕБЕ осетины с грузинами... но так тяжело удержать себя от тотальной ненависти когда видишь то что сотворили с Цхинвалом. За беззащитных детей, женщин и стариков хочется мстить по закону гор... я утром просыпаюсь с кровью под ногтями... и пытаюсь себя убедить, что не все грузины добивали раненых и кидали гранаты в подвалы с врачами и детьми...
With great respect to the language of Jack London and Maugham...

VeNoM2137 Wrote:And now u and ur president Sakhashvili r in panic, cause u have nothing to do. Ur government is foolish, bloodthirsty and foolish. U thought, that nobody will notice ur anti-human crimes, ah? Or maybe u hoped that there would appear kinda USA forces that will shoot russians? Haha. If u r guilty - just try to save the rest of conscience, no need to blame others. The georgian authorities certainly knew that Russia will reply the invasion as it is said in the agreement. So what was the aim of the invasion? To provoke the agression of Russia? U did it, u knew it would be so as Russian government can't authorize unpunished killing it's citizens. So what have u achieved? Totally destroyed city, 2000+ dead people, 30-40k refugees. Now what? And now Russian government (not georgian!) transfered 10 billion rubles (~$500 mln) for the re-building of the destroyed city and villages.

solo Wrote:I do not think that comparing kosovo and ossetia is correct. ossetia is georgian land, it's georgian name is samachablo, it belonged to georgia for more then 10 centuries, and only in 17 th century ossetians were settled in that region, now called s.ossetia.

the problem is russia is using that problem for it's purposes. . . but, the land is georgian, it was so for centuries.

solo Wrote:killing people is not acceptable, but, believe me russians were not throwing flowers, they were shooting too, and lots of georgian civilians had died. and as for politics, georgians do not invade the land of other country.

solo Wrote:as for double standards, the question is: if russia was backing serbs in kosovo case, why is it backing ossetians now? is it logical?

Caucasus Wrote:

solo Wrote:If South Ossetia is Samachablo so should we call Georgia such case GRUZIYA and not Georgia?
Let us have Gruziya then, and you may go freely to Georgia. Georgia is situated in USA.



Why Georgian civilians have died ? When your army was setting up artillery or army units in the yards of georgian civilians and firing at Tskhinval or Russian army they should have thought that answer-fire can reach civilians.
As for the other counry - South Ossetia has independece for more than 14 years. It cost them much suffering from Georgian terrorists or army (call it as you wish), and your "freedom" costs you just some licking USA asses when they come to you and some showing of disrespect or even hate to Russia. Have you rewritten history books for schooll alredy?



IT IS VERY LOGICAL. We tried to back Serbs in the legal way. So we do now. Just re-read the peace agreements that were signed by Georgia

.

IamGEORGIA Wrote:haha..you are really kind of stupid.. :haha
Whole world now can see who the putin is..This is most important.. uper
Very soon in S.Ossetia will arrive international peacekeepers in place of russian terorists..
You can punish whoever you want on your own teritory..On our land we will do what we think is the most important for our countries.
ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS...SOVIET UNION PERIOD< WHEN EVERYTHING WAS ON YOU TO DECIDE IS OVER..WE WILL DECIDE WHAT WE WANT..

Caucasus Wrote:

IamGEORGIA Wrote:haha..you are really kind of stupid.. :haha
Whole world now can see who the putin is..This is most important.. uper
Very soon in S.Ossetia will arrive international peacekeepers in place of russian terorists..
You can punish whoever you want on your own teritory..On our land we will do what we think is the most important for our countries.
ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS...SOVIET UNION PERIOD< WHEN EVERYTHING WAS ON YOU TO DECIDE IS OVER..WE WILL DECIDE WHAT WE WANT..

So you have spent so many lives just in the attempt ( I stress once more ATTEMPT) to make an IMAGE DOWNSHIFTING PROVOCATION for Mr. Putin?
Who you are after that? We will punish the war criminals at our territory. The so much spoken land is not YOURS it's Ossetian land.
The history will show who was a Great Nation and who was just a small coin for expence (or should I say a prostitute for a minute blow-job)?

solo Wrote:I do not think that comparing kosovo and ossetia is correct. ossetia is georgian land, it's georgian name is samachablo, it belonged to georgia for more then 10 centuries, and only in 17 th century ossetians were settled in that region, now called s.ossetia.

the problem is russia is using that problem for it's purposes. . . but, the land is georgian, it was so for centuries.

as for double standards, the question is: if russia was backing serbs in kosovo case, why is it backing ossetians now? is it logical?

IamGEORGIA Wrote:1. Lets call the Sakartvelo then uper
2. Its not another country..its the same country :GEORGIA..small part of georgia..

IamGEORGIA Wrote:(you always forget that another country chechny didn't want to live with you but..you made ethic cleanse in chenchy and killed almost everyone there..so you have no right to speak about anyrhing )

IamGEORGIA Wrote:These agreements were signed under aegis os SNG, but now we are leving SNG so they are annulized..and reussian peacekeepres will habe no right to be ther in Ossetia and Abkhazia..Its legal act..

k4despair Wrote:

solo Wrote:I do not think that comparing kosovo and ossetia is correct. ossetia is georgian land, it's georgian name is samachablo, it belonged to georgia for more then 10 centuries, and only in 17 th century ossetians were settled in that region, now called s.ossetia.

the problem is russia is using that problem for it's purposes. . . but, the land is georgian, it was so for centuries.

as for double standards, the question is: if russia was backing serbs in kosovo case, why is it backing ossetians now? is it logical?

If you spend just a minute to find out something about history of kosovo, u will be surprised. Slavs have setled in kosovo in 6th century, i.e. allmost 1,5k years ago. This is the region of "old serbia", where serbian state was born. Before NATO operations in kosovo it was full with ortodox christian churches built in 14th century and later. Even now one can found some of them and ruins of the rest. Don't you think albanian muslims were building those churches? Until 20th century started, population majority belong to serbians. So kosovo was serbian for centuries. From now on u can start to think that comparision of kosovo and S.O. is correct.

And yes, it is logical to support ossetians now. Logic of Russia is simple - there should be no double standarts in international relationships. Law should be the same for all cases, otherwise it is not the law, but a caprice of the strongest one. Russia insisted that "kosovo law" will be a very bad law. But today it is already the law - good or bad, but the only one for all cases.

IamGEORGIA Wrote:

Caucasus Wrote:

IamGEORGIA Wrote:haha..you are really kind of stupid.. :haha
Whole world now can see who the putin is..This is most important.. uper
Very soon in S.Ossetia will arrive international peacekeepers in place of russian terorists..
You can punish whoever you want on your own teritory..On our land we will do what we think is the most important for our countries.
ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS...SOVIET UNION PERIOD< WHEN EVERYTHING WAS ON YOU TO DECIDE IS OVER..WE WILL DECIDE WHAT WE WANT..

So you have spent so many lives just in the attempt ( I stress once more ATTEMPT) to make an IMAGE DOWNSHIFTING PROVOCATION for Mr. Putin?
Who you are after that? We will punish the war criminals at our territory. The so much spoken land is not YOURS it's Ossetian land.
The history will show who was a Great Nation and who was just a small coin for expence (or should I say a prostitute for a minute blow-job)?

what sence of idiotizm..really russian..bravo..

LAND OF GEORGIAN AND OSSETIAN PEOPLE UNDER GEORGIAN JURISPRUDENCE..

calm down...Keep your sexual fanrasies for yourself..would be better..
You are great nation.. :haha medvedev negotiating with KoKoity abd bagaoh, and USA with france.. :haha