European Union Forums

[Giovane]

Saloma, said that in Cheche war were killed 100000 peoples, as I think you means only chechen people.
But why does you keep silence about 500000 russians that lived in Grozny, You know, that since 1985 they attacked by native population (chechens), Every 3d russian woman (14years and elder) was raped. Nowdays you never can find russian people in Chechnya.
Also you acquse Putin in deaths human people (100000). But when putin became a president (2000) Chechnya had been independent country. And Chechen's terrorist attacked Dagestan in 2000. In the result the 2 chechen war was beginning. Nobody special killed people.

Let's speake about Bush. Do you know how much people hi killed???? Afghanistan, Iraq, Livia, Ossetia.....
And don't try to tell me that Bush brings democrasy!! It's a bulsh...t!!!!
Ask Iraqui nowdays can he fell himself in safety at the streets???? He tell you that can't. Bush killed more that 100000. Memorize it & Dig it!

P,S, I think that Russia doesn't exaggerate a death toll. Simply, USA government try to decrease a quantity specially. In another way Russia will press to fix facts of genocide and judge georgian president as a criminal

[Salomo]

Just one thing, Giovane: I think I have never defended G.W.Bush, God forbid me

About Putin I probably said only that he was president when Russians bombed Groznyi to ruins... - Why bomb civilians???

This said, Saakashvili was not angel either while ordering the rockets to reach Tskhinvali.

[Giovane]

About Putin I probably said only that he was president when Russians bombed Groznyi to ruins... - Why bomb civilians???.

Unfortunately, you don't understand me, The first checehn war begun on 1 January 1994 - Russian troops stormed Grozny.... Putin in that moment wasn't a president.... The president was Yeltsin.... And in 1994 Grozny turned into the ruins
And you know as I sad since 1985 till 1994 chechens killed and drivove out 500000 russians from RUSSIAN city Grozny ( 1 fact from history: in 19 century Grozny was outpost of russian's trooops- Cossacks).
And now pls/ Solome, compare 100000 and 500000, Do you see disparity????

[Terry]

we can't deepen our discussions too much in the past. You mentioned the 19th century. Well if we remember earlier times, Russia held much bigger territories.

[Salomo]

About Putin I probably said only that he was president when Russians bombed Groznyi to ruins... - Why bomb civilians???.

Unfortunately, you don't understand me, The first checehn war begun on 1 January 1994 - Russian troops stormed Grozny.... Putin in that moment wasn't a president.... The president was Yeltsin.... And in 1994 Grozny turned into the ruins
And you know as I sad since 1985 till 1994 chechens killed and drivove out 500000 russians from RUSSIAN city Grozny ( 1 fact from history: in 19 century Grozny was outpost of russian's trooops- Cossacks).
And now pls/ Solome, compare 100000 and 500000, Do you see disparity????

Yes, yes, but what I meant with bombings concerned also the 2nd Chechen war! Russians did bomb Groznyi in that war too. So, why bomb a civilian city, which already is ruins? is the reason anything else than humiliation?

(Same would apply of course to the big bombings of German cities by UK and USA in 1944-45, especially Dresden, especially those who "finished" the job in the 2nd day )

[SiD]

Yes, yes, but what I meant with bombings concerned also the 2nd Chechen war! Russians did bomb Groznyi in that war too. So, why bomb a civilian city, which already is ruins? is the reason anything else than humiliation?

(Same would apply of course to the big bombings of German cities by UK and USA in 1944-45, especially Dresden, especially those who "finished" the job in the 2nd day )

Look Salomo as i said it is war. See the death toll and you can see that it was realy costly war.
Not me not you wasnt ther during military action, we do not know what happened exactly. But i think that every commander (parhaps it sounds cinical) is responsible for life of his guys. He can not protect and defend and save everyone, but he is commander of his soldiers they follov his orders and can die becouse of it, so his duty is to return them home to thier families. Parhaps it sounds cruel but i think it is how it should be. So if to avoid huge losses commander must request or order bombardment that is his hoice to do so. I do not think that great moralists and humanists could be good generals or military. But people who can gain victory and save as many thier subordinats as they can are always needed, no matter how democratic your country is.
Anyway that all can be told by just: war is cruel.

[TovarischZhivago]

(Aug. 27, 2008 – Moscow)
WAR IN OSSETIA – REPLY LIMITED – THE WEAK LINK

There’s been a lot of talk in the West about the West being limited
in its response to Russia’s conduct in Ossetia, etc.

To me, the limitations lie in the ethics, in the West's own culture -
not in politics or economics or military power.

It’s not even about the precedents and embarrassments such as Kosovo
or Iraq, where the West was/is debasing the values it claims to profess.

In the Ossetian war, the limitations came the moment everyone thought
that Georgia’s president could be right after all, might not be a totally
bad idea to use multiple-rockets on a city of 10 000, we just didn’t
expect Russia to reply, it came as a surprise.

The rest – ‘the bear is back!’, ‘say no to Russia, we won the cold war
and we will move on!’ – were variations on the theme, compensatory
reactions and Freudian slips, the West struggling with itself rather
than Russia.

The limitations multiplied when it was said, oh it looks like just a
handful of civilians were killed in Ossetia, how good that Russians
can’t prove anything.

It’s not to say that the West is evil and that there’s one single ‘West’.

To me, there’s a crisis of meaning, a sense of identity gone wrong –
it affects judgment and cuts at the moral base. You can’t bring together
a country or a group of countries based on consumer satisfaction and
military power alone, you’ll keep having problems with that.

Moscow
Russia

[Lenus]

Please guys, let's focus only on the Death Toll of Civilians, which is a PRIMARY reason for Russian occupation.

Any proofs found yet??

Russians mentioned 133, than went back to 2000.

What is going on?? If Russia didnt have a reason to enter South Ossetia, it has to Apologise, pay for the damages, and get ack to its own territory.

[M.Helen]

by the way, what's the wrong with the number of deaths? Why a concrete number hasn't been stated yet? Is it so difficult to count the bodies? I want to know the truth - were there 130 or 2000 killed? It's a big difference you know.

[Giovane]

by the way, what's the wrong with the number of deaths? Why a concrete number hasn't been stated yet? Is it so difficult to count the bodies? I want to know the truth - were there 130 or 2000 killed? It's a big difference you know.

The quontity of deaths at this day equals about 1600 osetian people.
Helen, such number as 133 deaths of peace people can't exists... Because using during 2 days "Grad" to kill 133 people imposible. But to kill 1000 it's very easy...

[EU1]

Besides georgians used artillery systems "Grad" that are weapons of mass destruction at night when civilians were sleeping and many did not wake up any more

[Hakan G]

God bless them

[Lenus]

by the way, what's the wrong with the number of deaths? Why a concrete number hasn't been stated yet? Is it so difficult to count the bodies? I want to know the truth - were there 130 or 2000 killed? It's a big difference you know.

The quontity of deaths at this day equals about 1600 osetian people.
Helen, such number as 133 deaths of peace people can't exists... Because using during 2 days "Grad" to kill 133 people imposible. But to kill 1000 it's very easy...

Giovane

Excuse me, but you talk like a fortunteller, or in fact like Kokoity. "more than 2000 peacuful civilians" was claimed to be killed.

133 was announced by Russian Prosecution office.

There is such a thing as LOGIC in this world. There is also a concept of IRON LOGIC. I believe everyone knows what that means.

I detect the new type of logic here - RUSSIAN LOGIC.

So, we don't have 2000 bodies, (They will be presented in a day or two - SiD sayd it 3 weeks ago), but we ASSUME that, if GEORGIANS used MIssiles, it SOULD have been 1000's of victims.

hence, according to RUSSIAN LOGIC, result is known before even assessing the situation. the only task is to bring the possible cause as close to the pre-proclaimed Result as possible.

ingenious!

[Lenus]

Besides georgians used artillery systems "Grad" that are weapons of mass destruction at night when civilians were sleeping and many did not wake up any more

I eleive you need to work on your definitions.

Artillery systems "Grad" is an artillery system, NOT "Weapons of MAss destruciotns"

[Giovane]

1)Lenus are you from georgia? Am I right? Your undecqution posts shows me that you are from georgia...
2)This theme as your posts are about nothing. This theme was made on 18 of August. And now tell me how do you want to know how many people died? I told you information (about 1600) of Russian ministry foreing affair. What do you want from me, that I will go in Ossetia and count all bodies???? You absolutely havn't and logic and brains. Try to think hardly, that town was bombed 2 days, georgian troops were there,georgian snipers and aviation shot down different corteges with fugitive. And 133 deaths can't exists by NO MEANS. Can you understand????? And I said it in my previous post. And special for you again, 133 people couldn't be killed but more and even more 1000 it's very easy... If you and now can't understand I tell you in anothet manner: Using such weapon as "Grad" trops, aviation, speciall mision units, artilery during some days to kill more 1000 wery easy. I think now you can understand it...
3) Somebody have told it, but I repeat this in another manner. First of all, lady try to teache yourself to respect all members of this forum. It's very easy, if you got some upbringing. And all your messages about Russian logic and stinging remarks other georgian members of this forum in adress of russian members calls only lough. And this remins me a girl whose ass was touched and this girl nothing can do but she's very disappointing. Lenus don't be like this girl....

[Eka]

Many talks about victims and its horibble. I am concerned about both sides and russian solgers too but way I can not see information about wounded? As I know there is some ratio between dead / wounded so it is interesting what ratio is from both sides. If Russia is talking about 2000 dead so wounded I suppose must be 3-4 times more - 6000-8000. EVEn more. SO woundeds figure can clariffy deads figures too. If somebody knows this ratio it will be helpfyll for this topic to put it here.Its not diffcult to count wounded( they wll refer to PHC and hospitals and must be counted there)
I found this video only today. Its HRW expert. She is Russian and speaking in russian . Its interesitig to listen for hes opinion too. In the end she speaks about dead and wounded people, but she have not figures at that moment.

Анна Нейстат - старший исследователь отделения по чрезвычайным ситуациям, руководитель московского представительства Human Rights Watch, работавшая с 10 по 28 августа в зоне конфликта как с осетинской, так и с грузинской стороны.

Анна Нейстат: Был ли геноцид?

http://grani-tv.ru/

[Lenus]

1)Lenus are you from georgia? Am I right? Your undecqution posts shows me that you are from georgia...

Well, I am astonished by your guess.
how do you do it, holmes??

2)This theme as your posts are about nothing. This theme was made on 18 of August. And now tell me how do you want to know how many people died? I told you information (about 1600) of Russian ministry foreing affair. What do you want from me, that I will go in Ossetia and count all bodies???? You absolutely havn't and logic and brains.

Unfortunately your english is even worse than your logic. I usually do not try to corect language-related mistakes by other people, but here I just don't get what are you trying to say.

Of courtse I dont want YOU to go to Ossetia and count bodies.
But, why and indeed how can you trust just your officials claiming 2000? how exactly did they know? and if they DIDNT KNOW, why attack Georgia??

Do you understan the words that are coming out of my mouth ? (c) Rush hour

If asking such question means that I don't have brains, well, too bad for you. You are prooving again that I was right about Russian Logic.

Try to think hardly, that town was bombed 2 days, georgian troops were there,georgian snipers and aviation shot down different corteges with fugitive. And 133 deaths can't exists by NO MEANS... Can you understand????? And I said it in my previous post. And special for you again, 133 people couldn't be killed but more and even more 1000 it's very easy... If you and now can't understand I tell you in anothet manner: Using such weapon as "Grad" trops, aviation, speciall mision units, artilery during some days to kill more 1000 wery easy. I think now you can understand it...

NO, my dear Russian comrade, I DONT and I WONT understand such stupidity.

By your logic you can jail a person firing a machinegun to a houseblock, without seeing the bodies?? What kind of court would swallow that?

the Russian one, perhaps!

3) Somebody have told it, but I repeat this in another manner. First of all, lady try to teache yourself to respect all members of this forum. It's very easy, if you got some upbringing. And all your messages about Russian logic and stinging remarks other georgian members of this forum in adress of russian members calls only lough. And this remins me a girl whose ass was touched and this girl nothing can do but she's very disappointing. Lenus don't be like this girl....

I am sorry if I dissapoint you , but I am far from being a lady.
In fact, I am quite the opposite, I am a Man, so please try not to fall in love with me.

[EU1]

Of courtse I dont want YOU to go to Ossetia and count bodies.
But, why and indeed how can you trust just your officials claiming 2000? how exactly did they know? and if they DIDNT KNOW, why attack Georgia??

Do you understan the words that are coming out of my mouth ? (c) Rush hour

I see you are a sick man. So many people were killed and you are laughing.

[Giovane]

Of courtse I dont want YOU to go to Ossetia and count bodies.
But, why and indeed how can you trust just your officials claiming 2000? how exactly did they know? and if they DIDNT KNOW, why attack Georgia??

Do you understan the words that are coming out of my mouth ? (c) Rush hour

I see you are a sick man. So many people were killed and you are laughing.

1)Yea, EU, you're absolutely right, this is a sick man, who call himself by woman's nick...
2)So, you're so stupid that I don't want comment this bulshit that you wrote. And that you don't want to hide your stuoidity, It's very shocking....
Look this if you can't understand information in text....
http://mreporter.ru/ReporterMessages!vi ... rtid=13862

It appears, that '...firing a machinegun to a houseblock, without seeing the bodies?? " could exist
Finally, look 1 video, then you should make excuses...

[lashachochua]

Of courtse I dont want YOU to go to Ossetia and count bodies.
But, why and indeed how can you trust just your officials claiming 2000? how exactly did they know? and if they DIDNT KNOW, why attack Georgia??

Do you understan the words that are coming out of my mouth ? (c) Rush hour

I see you are a sick man. So many people were killed and you are laughing.

EU1 you are provocator!!! Just shut down! Stop provocating! you are a sick and bone-headed person

[lashachochua]

Of courtse I dont want YOU to go to Ossetia and count bodies.
But, why and indeed how can you trust just your officials claiming 2000? how exactly did they know? and if they DIDNT KNOW, why attack Georgia??

Do you understan the words that are coming out of my mouth ? (c) Rush hour

I see you are a sick man. So many people were killed and you are laughing.

1)Yea, EU, you're absolutely right, this is a sick man, who call himself by woman's nick...
2)So, you're so stupid that I don't want comment this bulshit that you wrote. And that you don't want to hide your stuoidity, It's very shocking....
Look this if you can't understand information in text....
http://mreporter.ru/ReporterMessages!vi ... rtid=13862

It appears, that '...firing a machinegun to a houseblock, without seeing the bodies?? "
Finally, look 1 video, then you should make excuses...

Giovane, you stop calling everything you do not like bullshit! to tell the truth the bullshit you are providing here deserves to be noted. By the way, Putin hase o give you medal for your contribution to Russian Propaganda!

[Giovane]

1)Lasha, I think that S-li should give you medal for propoganda. "cause you do it very profesionaly.
2) lasha, in contrast to others, I always give sources, and the reasons to think it bulshit don't exists. So, man, relax.

[lashachochua]

1)Lasha, I think that S-li should give you medal for propoganda. "cause you do it very profesionaly.
2) lasha, in contrast to others, I always give sources, and the reasons to think it bulshit don't exists. So, man, relax.

The nobel prize in providing Russian sources goes to GIOVANE...My congratulations Man!

Giovane, just to tell the truth, please try also to read some other sources. or at least read the analysis in russian web site grani.ru, at least man

[Giovane]

1)Lasha, I think that S-li should give you medal for propoganda. "cause you do it very profesionaly.
2) lasha, in contrast to others, I always give sources, and the reasons to think it bulshit don't exists. So, man, relax.

The nobel prize in providing Russian sources goes to GIOVANE...My congratulations Man!

Giovane, just to tell the truth, please try also to read some other sources. or at least read the analysis in russian web site grani.ru, at least man

You're a funny. Your posts shoves that you never see my source... I resorted only to video hostings such YouTube (to show georgian brutality), Wiki (1 time), BBC&CNN ('cause 1 georgian didn't belive that Saakashvili had eatem necktie and avoided aeroplane), and 1 time I used research of N.Osetian university 'bout history of Caucas (Abkhazia)...
So man before to write posts with different acuasition try to check it..
And I can press charges in using only foreign sorces (for examp, american news) that was exposured in preconception.

[lashachochua]

1)Lasha, I think that S-li should give you medal for propoganda. "cause you do it very profesionaly.
2) lasha, in contrast to others, I always give sources, and the reasons to think it bulshit don't exists. So, man, relax.

The nobel prize in providing Russian sources goes to GIOVANE...My congratulations Man!

Giovane, just to tell the truth, please try also to read some other sources. or at least read the analysis in russian web site grani.ru, at least man

You're a funny. Your posts shoves that you never see my source... I resorted only to video hostings such YouTube (to show georgian brutality), Wiki (1 time), BBC&CNN ('cause 1 georgian didn't belive that Saakashvili had eatem necktie and avoided aeroplane), and 1 time I used research of N.Osetian university 'bout history of Caucas (Abkhazia)...
So man before to write posts with different acuasition try to check it..
And I can press charges in using only foreign sorces (for examp, american news) that was exposured in preconception.

What is the source of your reasoning, This is what I thought, to tell the truth I am not looking at your sources in the sense you understand it... You comments are one-to-one copy of russian sources, if you remember once I told you that what you say is onetoone correspondance to what Putin says, do you remember?