European Union Forums

[IamGEORGIA]

Russian occupants carried out ethnic cleaning in Abkhazia (in 1993) and South Ossetia (2008) to force Georgian civilians (more then 300 000) to leave their homes. Thousands have been killed.

Lies. Fisrt, you should remember, that the Georgian-Abhazian war was started by the Georgians, whose president's slogan was "Georgia for Georgians". Georgia took Abkhazia's autonomy back. The civil war started. The cleansings and fightings were carried out by the Abhazians themselves and the Chechens, with Shamil Basayev as the head. The Russian troops (which stayed there from the USSR times) were also attacked and had to reply.

Could you be more careful with what you are saying? 1993 was not long ago to forget things. The war was started by a Georgian "generals" Kitovani and Ioseliani. Ioseliani is dead, Kitovani got a “shelter” in Russia (tell me why?).
The president which said "georgia for georgians" - zviad gamsakhurdia was not president anymore (because most of the country did not like his policies, however there are still his supporters). Also, very interesting thing is that father of Zviad Gamsakhurdia was KGB agent, also Zviad Gamsakhurdia himself was released from the prison (he was arresting as a "disident") after his public "confession" against his friends. Further in 1990s Georgian dissidents (most influential and smart ones, i.e. Kostava, Chavchavadze, Chanturia...) have died or been killed. For some reason Zviad was the only one who "survived". Again tell me why?
Abkhazians even with help of Chechens would not been able to "win" the war without significant "help" from Russia. There are tapes where Russians and Chechens were playing football with a head of killed Georgian.
I totally agree that genocide is unacceptable; I do not think that killing civilians is something honorable either for Georgians or for Russians. But (correct me if I am wrong) it seems that 300 000 IDPs and tens of thousands Georgians killed in Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not impressive enough to call that genocide and to raise your voice against that.

kai sircxvilia reeb laparakob..
yvela yvelaferi mara kgb-s agentebos nagdad ver daabraleb ...

-------------


To SVP

Where do you live? maybe you are not very old and do not remember what in Abkhazia happened..
There were russian and chechen military gangs in Abkhazia in 1993..and they made there ethnic cleanse..displaced 300 000 abkhazians..let them go back, and then lets held there referendum..
Abkhazian separatists had no power at all to fight againts georgian troops...without any help thay could not do anything..

[Simon A]

For information: In Abkhazia ethical cleansing of Georgians has been carried. I can provide you with the data of census in Abkhazia of 1989.
Georgians 45.7%
Abkhaz 17.8%
Can you tell me how could 17,8% of population force 45.7% to flee away from their homes, without external help?

The Georgian have compelled to flight after the Georgian tanks have come in Abkhazia. It was the first aggression of Georgia against Abkhazia. And there Georgia has sufferred defeat. The Abkhazian Georgians have left for Georgia because were afraid of revenge abkhazians. But in it Georgians were guilty.

Sight from the ossetic side http://osinform.ru/index.php?action_ski ... me=full_en
The crimes of georgian's army in S. Ossetia
Saakashvili is the criminal and the terrorist. His soldiers have killed 2100 peace citizens of Tskhinvali in some hours.
- Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia

[Frederic]

For information: In Abkhazia ethical cleansing of Georgians has been carried. I can provide you with the data of census in Abkhazia of 1989.
Georgians 45.7%
Abkhaz 17.8%
Can you tell me how could 17,8% of population force 45.7% to flee away from their homes, without external help?

The Georgian have compelled to flight after the Georgian tanks have come in Abkhazia. It was the first aggression of Georgia against Abkhazia. And there Georgia has sufferred defeat. The Abkhazian Georgians have left for Georgia because were afraid of revenge abkhazians. But in it Georgians were guilty.

Sight from the ossetic side http://osinform.ru/index.php?action_ski ... me=full_en
The crimes of georgian's army in S. Ossetia
Saakashvili is the criminal and the terrorist. His soldiers have killed 2100 peace citizens of Tskhinvali in some hours. - Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia

Have you been taught the phrase "Saakashvili is the criminal and the terrorist. His soldiers have killed 2100 peace citizens of Tskhinvali in some hours" by heart? Maybe you can provide us with more arguments? Do you have any information from independent sources (not Russian or Ossetian-which is the same as russian) proving your brilliant arguments?

http://www.sosgeorgia.org

[Simon A]

What other sources can be, if till now cannot count up killed? Half osset ran to Russia and till now to be afraid to come back. As Georgia prepares for new aggression.

[IamGEORGIA]

What other sources can be, if till now cannot count up killed? Half osset ran to Russia and till now to be afraid to come back. As Georgia prepares for new aggression.

wow what a reliable information..
new 'aggression"?
when?

[chena]

Russian fairness and legislation

sorry for russian

Совет Федерации задним числом легализовал ввод войск в Грузию Совет Федерации на заседании в понедельник, 25 августа, разрешил президенту России Дмитрию Медведеву увеличить российский миротворческий контингент в Южной Осетии и Абхазии, сообщает РИА "Новости". Решение датировано 8 августа - днем, когда наращивание российского воинского контингента в непризнанных республиках началось фактически.


В момент начала боевых действий в Южной Осетии обе палаты российского парламента находились на летних каникулах, которые было решено не прерывать. Спикер Совета Федерации Сергей Миронов подчеркнул, что с юридической точки зрения принятие такого решения задним числом "безупречно".

Ранее заместитель начальника Генштаба Анатолий Ноговицын сообщил, что постоянный российский миротворческий контингент в Южной Осетии будет увеличен до 452 человек, в Абхазии - до 2142 человек.

Также Совет Федерации в понедельник единогласно принял обращение к президенту с просьбой официально признать независимость Южной Осетии и Абхазии.

[Frederic]

What other sources can be, if till now cannot count up killed? Half osset ran to Russia and till now to be afraid to come back. As Georgia prepares for new aggression.

I thought that brave russian soldiers are now in Tskhinvali to "defend" ossetians? Maybe they are afraid of russian hungry soldiers, part of whom have pulled out from more prosperious parts of Georgia to Tskhinvali and now are again very hungry and angry and may continue looting (marauding) in there? Just in case, I would recomend Ossetians to hide their used toothbrushes, toilet sets, lavatory pans, forks and used shoes from the brave russian army. These are the things they are most fond of. Be aware of the underwaer, not leave them on the ropes for drying , they steel this stuff too.

[Benn]

Hey Simon, why are you saying Georgia is preparing for a new aggression? Where did you hear that from?

[the globe]

In 1993 Russian occupants expatriate from Abkhazia region of Georgia about 250 000 (more then 45 % of total population of Abkhazia) Georgian civilians. Thousands of them were brutally tortured to death. After this ethnic cleansing, the Russian government gave the Abkhaz separatists political, economic, as well as military supports. Abkhaz separatists misappropriate the property of Georgia refugees. Afterwards Russia carried out a referendum for independence of Abkhazia. Recently Russian occupants entered the Kodori gorge (a region of Abkhazia until recently controlled by Georgian government), as well as South Ossetia to commit a new act of ethnic cleansing. Houses of Georgian civilians have been burned. Russians did not permit the International Red Cross to this regions. Now it is Georgia, but who is the next?

15 May 2008 General Assembly of U.N.O approved a resolution concerning homecoming of Georgian refugees to Abkhazia. Russian, as well as Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, Serbia, Syria, Sudan, Byelorussia voted against this resolution. If you want, you can check it. As to the recent act of ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia, I can address you to an interview of the lieder of Ossetian separatist Kokoity (Medvedev and Putin often meet him in Kremlin) in the Russian newspaper “Komersant”. He said that Ossetian militants “fully cleaned out” Georgian villages on the territory of unrecognized republic, and Ossetian never permit them (Georgians) come back. Unfortunately, I can not tell you an exact number of this newspaper (I red it in internet), but it was in last week.

Where is the World?

[the globe]

So-called Russian “peacemakers” killed Georgian civilian by cluster bombing. If anybody has a doubt, please, visit the website of Human Rights Watch to see video of bombing of Georgian town Gori.

[SVP]

Could you be more careful with what you are saying? 1993 was not long ago to forget things. The war was started by a Georgian "generals" Kitovani and Ioseliani. Ioseliani is dead, Kitovani got a “shelter” in Russia (tell me why?).
The president which said "georgia for georgians" - zviad gamsakhurdia was not president anymore (because most of the country did not like his policies, however there are still his supporters). Also, very interesting thing is that father of Zviad Gamsakhurdia was KGB agent, also Zviad Gamsakhurdia himself was released from the prison (he was arresting as a "disident") after his public "confession" against his friends. Further in 1990s Georgian dissidents (most influential and smart ones, i.e. Kostava, Chavchavadze, Chanturia...) have died or been killed. For some reason Zviad was the only one who "survived". Again tell me why?
Abkhazians even with help of Chechens would not been able to "win" the war without significant "help" from Russia. There are tapes where Russians and Chechens were playing football with a head of killed Georgian.
I totally agree that genocide is unacceptable; I do not think that killing civilians is something honorable either for Georgians or for Russians. But (correct me if I am wrong) it seems that 300 000 IDPs and tens of thousands Georgians killed in Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not impressive enough to call that genocide and to raise your voice against that.

I'm careful enough. I'm glad you admit that war was started by the Georgians. I don't (and can't) know why Ioseliani is dead, and why Kitovani got a shelter in Russia, but I understand, what you're hinting at That they were Moscow agents, and that it's Moscow again who started and spoiled the whole thing. I also know, that this exactly "truth" will be in your new history books (like in the Ukraine). Funny thing about you accusing Gamasakhurdia, a Georgian nationalist, of being a Kremlin agent About his father. After the fall of the Nazi Germany, Americans were trying to find some decent non-SS Germans among high officers, but failed. Because they found out that all of them were SS . Same in the USSR - all "active" people were either in the Party, or in KGB

I'm old enough (43) to remember the collapse of the USSR and what happened after. The USSR was ruined by the communist party leaders, because they were partly stupid, partly too greedy, and not satisfied with what they had. The falldown was also the result of the longtime destructive activities, carried out by the US. When the so-called perestroika began, nobody could stop the process, and we immediately had 15 presidents instead of 1, and the staff of the 15 presidents. More and more people at power. Communists immediately became anticommunists, don't you remember it? There was a great chance to divide power, to get as much as possible. Do you think that happened all under Moscow control? It was out of any control very soon, because the republics became de facto independent 3-4 years after 1985. Nationalistic moods grew everywhere, and somebody set them on fire. I'm sure these could not be and Russian or Pro-Russian forces, because these did not exist as such. The last Russian forces were killed and expatriated in the 1920's. What we had in 1980's - was a Soviet state-and-party machine, Soviet Army, etc. And the leaders didn't give a f*uck about Russia. Those were attempts to stay in power, to keep what they had. That was agony. More or less pro-Russian leaders are Putin & Medvedev, plus they are smart. Gorbachev & Schevardnadze were stupid. Yeltsin was an idiot like your Saakashvili today, plus a drunkard. By the way, the difference between you and me is that I can admit the fact that Russian president can be an idiot, but you can't admit the same (clearly visible) thing about the Georgian one

I don't deny the Russian support of Abkhazia. Not sure about headball, but, in principle, it's Basayev style headball. Don't ask me, what I'd do in place of "that time" leaders - to support or not to support. I dunno. But I want all the participants of this discussion to allow at least a probability of some "internal" battles for power inside national republics. It's very easy to accuse Moscow of every possible thing. If you namage to prove something - OK, but that was a Soviet apparat sending Soviet internal troops to Tbilisi in 1989, for example. But you seem to have replaced all words "Communist" and "Soviet" by the word "Russian". And so on and so forth. Yeltsin's government was not Russian and pro-Russian either, though the country's name was Russia already.

As to me, I raise my voice against any genocide and any looting

But tell me, seriously, do you really think this "law-enforcing operation" of Saakashvili could be a success? What did he hope for? That he'll kill half og the population and the Russian peacekeepers, the rest will run away and time for referendum? Do you understand, that your problem is not Kokoyty and "his gang" (how many people are in the gang)? The problem is all of the Ossetians, with or without Russian support. Even if Russia goes away, and you capture South Ossetia, killing more than half (because they'll fight), and after you win (nominally) - they'll never forgive you and there'll be revenge. Both officials and civilians would be killed. And no end to the story...

And Russia warned the West - about recognizing Kosovo - it's dangerous!!! By the way, has Georgia recognized Kosovo? If Kosovo can, why not Abkhazia and SO? Double standards, my friend. This world is not fair.

[russian999]

Actually, now wery difficult to tell, who started war. But, I want to guess , very objectivly, that was georgians. You want to ask why? Because I know the character of both nations.
During my military service in russian (Soviet Union) army I had plenty of expirience with georgians. They was respectfull guys. Because they are socialysed,strong and very proud of themself. Also georgians have short temper - that is why you dont wont to mess around with them. And in totalitarian regime they was quite succesfull and respectfull.
And now georgians show there best totalitarian athavism - short temper. They did not want to negotiate with ossetians, just to smash them.But intolerance - its not democratic behavior. That is why russians taugt them the lesson of humblness. I did not say, that russians are right. They also wrong. But saakashwili pretendet, that georgia is democratic country. However, Russia did not pretend and just smashed Georgia.
I think, georgians have to learn how to be tolerant and not overproud of themself.

[PATKO]

Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia?

All we know who started this war!

It was Georgia, but the mean author of this event are United States of America and their allies!

Georgian troops (black ) killed over 2.000 civilian in South Osetia! Sakasvili commited awfull genocide, he is American pion...and America did all of this...

[SiD]

Actually, now wery difficult to tell, who started war. But, I want to guess , very objectivly, that was georgians. You want to ask why? Because I know the character of both nations.
During my military service in russian (Soviet Union) army I had plenty of expirience with georgians. They was respectfull guys. Because they are socialysed,strong and very proud of themself. Also georgians have short temper - that is why you dont wont to mess around with them. And in totalitarian regime they was quite succesfull and respectfull.
And now georgians show there best totalitarian athavism - short temper. They did not want to negotiate with ossetians, just to smash them.But intolerance - its not democratic behavior. That is why russians taugt them the lesson of humblness. I did not say, that russians are right. They also wrong. But saakashwili pretendet, that georgia is democratic country. However, Russia did not pretend and just smashed Georgia.
I think, georgians have to learn how to be tolerant and not overproud of themself.

I think it is lesson for everyone. Even ancient greeks had a story about Icar.

[russian999]

This is madness!
Madness???
This is GEORGIAA!!!

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Я Грузин, И пусть навеки враг запомнит, Что лишь тогда встаем мы на колени, когда целуем Грузинский флаг...IamGEORGIA

Posts: 128
Joined: 13 Aug 2008, 12:26
Private message

My frend! You sounds like bully. If you want to play with Russia by bully rules - you will be allways defeated. Simply because Russia is the largest bully in the world. That is why you, georgians, have to take responsibility for your shortcomings and start to learn how to be real european democratic country. And when you become real nontotalitarian country - all EU and USA will invite you and Russia will just envy of you.

[lashachochua]

The time line of the conflict.

1. Before Georgian side started bombing Ossetian (Georgian) teritories, Ossettian side had bombed Georgian bordering villages for two days. Russian Officials said that it is getting difficult to control ossetian separatists, there are a lot of volunters and so on ...(for two days Georgian side was not opening fire) This was the last thing that made georgian side to start bomberding ossetian positions. Within 24 hours Russian troops appeared in the territory of Georgia, which is practically impossible if they were not prepared for this ahead. So now you decide who started the war?...
2. This is not the war against Georgia, The western world should understand that Russia is trying to reestablish its different face. Trying to look like they can effect world politics. But I am sure, that after cold war, russia was left on its fate, but after these processes new geopolitical games will start to be under operation against russians and they will soon feel the result of western startegic thinking. There is no time for Russian type politics in modern times.

So look out! The russian world aggression shoudl be killed in childhood, otherwise the whole world will pay for it. There is no place and time for New Soviet Union...There is no need and demand for NEW STALIN!geo geo

[Eka]

Actually, now wery difficult to tell, who started war. But, I want to guess , very objectivly, that was georgians. You want to ask why? Because I know the character of both nations.
During my military service in russian (Soviet Union) army I had plenty of expirience with georgians. They was respectfull guys. Because they are socialysed,strong and very proud of themself. Also georgians have short temper - that is why you dont wont to mess around with them. And in totalitarian regime they was quite succesfull and respectfull.
And now georgians show there best totalitarian athavism - short temper. They did not want to negotiate with ossetians, just to smash them.But intolerance - its not democratic behavior. That is why russians taugt them the lesson of humblness. I did not say, that russians are right. They also wrong. But saakashwili pretendet, that georgia is democratic country. However, Russia did not pretend and just smashed Georgia.
I think, georgians have to learn how to be tolerant and not overproud of themself.

I think it is lesson for everyone. Even ancient greeks had a story about Icar.

I am watching sometimes for this form and this was the the thing that makes me smile.

Who is Icar?

He was very positiv figure in greek mithology as I remeber, or you was taught mithology in school from diffrent point of view?

[russian999]

The time line of the conflict.

1. Before Georgian side started bombing Ossetian (Georgian) teritories, Ossettian side had bombed Georgian bordering villages for two days. Russian Officials said that it is getting difficult to control ossetian separatists, there are a lot of volunters and so on ...(for two days Georgian side was not opening fire) This was the last thing that made georgian side to start bomberding ossetian positions. Within 24 hours Russian troops appeared in the territory of Georgia, which is practically impossible if they were not prepared for this ahead. So now you decide who started the war?...
2. This is not the war against Georgia, The western world should understand that Russia is trying to reestablish its different face. Trying to look like they can effect world politics. But I am sure, that after cold war, russia was left on its fate, but after these processes new geopolitical games will start to be under operation against russians and they will soon feel the result of western startegic thinking. There is no time for Russian type politics in modern times.

So look out! The russian world aggression shoudl be killed in childhood, otherwise the whole world will pay for it. There is no place and time for New Soviet Union...There is no need and demand for NEW STALIN!geo geo

Hey, you are very productive in terms of numbers of same posts in diffrent thems.

[lashachochua]

And for those who do not really understand the nature of problems, stop to make history look like you want it to be... This is the problem of Russia, they think they know everything, they know who is "agent"...Come on, stop telling this rubbish...

[lashachochua]

Actually, now wery difficult to tell, who started war. But, I want to guess , very objectivly, that was georgians. You want to ask why? Because I know the character of both nations.
During my military service in russian (Soviet Union) army I had plenty of expirience with georgians. They was respectfull guys. Because they are socialysed,strong and very proud of themself. Also georgians have short temper - that is why you dont wont to mess around with them. And in totalitarian regime they was quite succesfull and respectfull.
And now georgians show there best totalitarian athavism - short temper. They did not want to negotiate with ossetians, just to smash them.But intolerance - its not democratic behavior. That is why russians taugt them the lesson of humblness. I did not say, that russians are right. They also wrong. But saakashwili pretendet, that georgia is democratic country. However, Russia did not pretend and just smashed Georgia.
I think, georgians have to learn how to be tolerant and not overproud of themself.

I think it is lesson for everyone. Even ancient greeks had a story about Icar.

Come on, and you are telling this to us, I am young but I remember Chechnya very well... You russians destroyed this small nation...Be afraid og God!

I am watching sometimes for this form and this was the the thing that makes me smile.

Who is Icar?

He was very positiv figure in greek mithology as I remeber, or you was taught mithology in school from diffrent point of view?

[russian999]

And for those who do not really understand the nature of problems, stop to make history look like you want it to be... This is the problem of Russia, they think they know everything, they know who is "agent"...Come on, stop telling this rubbish...

My frend, I am russian and I know too well how difficult to shed totalitarism from inside yourself. Look at yor posts - you are still communist inside, even you trying to pretend to be democratic. If you looking for enemy around you - you will find it. You have to learn, that in every conflict both sides are wrong. And , if you want to be real democratic person - you have to admitt, that you are wrong too.

[SiD]

I am watching sometimes for this form and this was the the thing that makes me smile.

Who is Icar?

He was very positiv figure in greek mithology as I remeber, or you was taught mithology in school from diffrent point of view?

He was positive figure, why not? Well he just tried to fly to the sun and ended up falling down. Lesson of how can pride destroy someone.

[lashachochua]

And for those who do not really understand the nature of problems, stop to make history look like you want it to be... This is the problem of Russia, they think they know everything, they know who is "agent"...Come on, stop telling this rubbish...

My frend, I am russian and I know too well how difficult to shed totalitarism from inside yourself. Look at yor posts - you are still communist inside, even you trying to pretend to be democratic. If you looking for enemy around you - you will find it. You have to learn, that in every conflict both sides are wrong. And , if you want to be real democratic person - you have to admitt, that you are wrong too.

Come on... It is not about democracy at all, this is your problem, your understanding of democracy...Democracy is the system of ruling, what matters is whether a person is Liberal or Not... I do not pretend that I am liberal, I am still trying to understand this philosophy and I am reading a lot for this. Just what I am telling is possibly the truth and I beleive what I say, that's why I am telling. I am not a pro-saakashvili georgian, but in this case there is no matter about saakashvili. He is not a problem, JUst Georgians do not want to live with such Russia, we do not want to live under russian rules, you have to understand it. Also about two conflicts, if you get deep in these problems you ll find that russian backed separatists started the war, they forced high officials in bkhazia of georgian nationality to leave their rooms, they forced them to leave the places where they lived, what do you think wha normal government should do when separatists force people to live their working and living places?...
Also. come on Russian TV programms do not know how many people were killed, they started from 2000, now it is 1300-1400...This is what you call democracy. I pray to see democratic Russia full with LIBERALS.

[lashachochua]

Also one question to Russia999, Please tell me any book you have read about democracy or Liberalizm? Or this knowledge you got from Russian TV and from Russian Public figures??? I am too young to be called communist, I was born in decedents family, it would have been more realistric to call me nationalist. Sorry friend you are mistaken, but you can live with your mistakes, I do understand you!

[lashachochua]

I am watching sometimes for this form and this was the the thing that makes me smile.

Who is Icar?

He was very positiv figure in greek mithology as I remeber, or you was taught mithology in school from diffrent point of view?

He was positive figure, why not? Well he just tried to fly to the sun and ended up falling down. Lesson of how can pride destroy someone.

Also I will comment about Icar...Russia999 it was not pride, it was a great desire to know more, desire telling that everything is possible, he managed to fly, he did what he wanted to do...it does not matter that he died... If you know Gilgamesh, Amiran and Promete they are heros, nevertheless all of them were destroyed for their truth....Rational criticizm this is what making progress, not beleiving to conventional wisdom and trying searching new!!!