European Union Forums

[Dani]

I want to ask my europeans and ukraines frends to comment recent gas tensions between Russia and Ukraine. I think, that main reason for that situation is political chaos in Ukraine. And, I think, that such irresponsible "democracy" should not be supported by West, but be punished by responsible democratic countries. What do you think about that?

I think you are just retelling Putin's lies, my dear Russian999. Your "responsible" government has cut off gas to many Europeans. Just to keep your promisses? Even the former Soviet Uninon never did it during. even during the cold war.

It's freezing here ...let the gas go through Ukraine idiots!!!

[JHSussex]

First of all, Ukrainians ARE Europeans, and since the 2004 Orange Revolution the EU has done NOTHING to treat them as such or to encourage Ukraine's normalization and European integration. It's difficult to feel that Ukraine has any real obligations to the EU if the EU is not prepared to fulfil its obligations to support a fledgling democracy and offer real opportunities for Ukraine to become a normal, responsible, European country. Perhaps if the EU (including the UK) eased draconian travel restrictions and granted a membership perspective, Ukraine might be in a position to consider the interests of others besides itself.

Secondly, morally, even if Ukraine has been siphoning off Russian gas, this only compensates fairly for the siphoning off of the money of ordinary Ukrainians to corrupt and unnecessary gas intermidiaries such as RosUkrEnergo.

Thirdly, I think it's fantasic to see EU officials having to trudge over to Kiev and the Russian-Ukrainian border. I only wish it was a sign of things to come!

[BK]

I think that your comment reflects either your naiveness or strong nationalistic prejudice. Whatever blame may be assigned to Ukraine the simple fact is that Russia has deliberately chosen to jeopardise the lives of millions of Europeans in order to iflex its political muscles. It's not about money. Its about power. Ukraine has very little. And Russia is fast losing the power that it has.

[AlexAlex]

So gyus,... what do we have now?
Ukraine has signed the agreement with EU and Russia.
Gazprom has opened the flow today.
Do you see any gas at Ukraine western border?
Any thoughts (espesialy from proukranian people)?

[JHSussex]

I am biased, but not naive. I would be interested to know therefore which parts of what I have said are not true (?).

Certainly Russia could solve this problem immediately by restarting the gas supply as normal and agreeing to a sensible price in the light of falling world prices. There is no doubt that this is an issue about Russia's desire to regain its 'sphere of influence', but the point is that Ukraine has to fight them alone, the EU prefers to 'keep Russia happy' than to support democratic European states. In particular, Germany is in Russia's pocket and obstructs all attempts for Ukraine to join the Euro-Atlantic mainstream.

Europe, should reach out to Ukraine now. Russia would protest but In reality would not be able to do much, just as the west couldn't do much in the Georgia crisis.

[AlexAlex]

in reply to JHSussex:

What is a sensible price?
Why EU byus gas at $400 now? They can byu gas in Norway and Algeria, they can byu oil and use it, they can use other resources. Why do they buy gas at $400? Russia don't want to sell at $200, if you want - do not buy.

Do you know much the transit system costs? Have you ever been in Yamal or Tyumen in winter?
I live in Siberia, it is not the best place to live because of climate.
If EU would not buy Russian resources, Chine would.

[JHSussex]

I'm not really interested in how much it costs. Russia needs Ukraine to distribute its gas to Europe. All this gas is worthless without it getting to Europe. Ukraine wanted 215 USD and Russia 250 so a price compromise of about 235 should have been reached. On the other hand, I don't object to Ukraine paying market prices in principle as, once it does so, Russia will lose that lever. Ukraine is in dire economic straits at the moment and has nothing to lose by holding out for the best possible deal. If the EU gives Ukraine some concrete reason for some loyalty, the situation could soon change.

[WARNING]

“…the principal objection to the project remains that when the pipeline is complete, Italy will be dependent upon it for 30 per cent of natural gas supplies, France for 35 per cent, and West Germany for 38 per cent. As a result those countries may well be subject to coercion or blackmail, devices which have a familiar role in Soviet foreign policy. On three previous occasions the Soviet Union has cut off energy supplies in order to impose political pressure (in 1948 to Yugoslavia, in 1961 to Albania, and in 1962 to China). Western nations have no reason to suppose that they will be immune from such pressures. Moreover, the sale of gas to the West will bring in much hard-needed cash which may then be used to increase Soviet defence spending.”
“TIMES” August 6, 1982

That warning was written 30 year ago! Soviets never used that “gas weapon” because they were too dependent on hard currency coming from West. But aggression policy did not change for KBG officer Putin. He is dreaming about new USSR.
Russia has a good currency deposit now and is playing a big game!

Many years ago it was Yugoslavia, Albania, China –today is Ukraine! The main target for Moscow is Ukrainian GTS (gas transportation system). They do everything to discredit Ukraine as a transit partner.

Russia gives no or just a little gas supply (that is what EU observers say) thus Ukrainian system is not able to work properly. Typical Russian cynicism and a pack of lies!

Russia already has a good stake in pipelines in Eastern Europe. That is a real danger for European Community! Don’t be fooled by KGB!

We all will hear soon that Putin will be demaning to get a control on Ukrainian pipes!

[WARNING]

Russia was planning a long lasting gas conflict with Ukraine & EU far in advance. But the main target was and is Ukraine. Many experts inside Russia were involved in that. The truth is that Russian TV propaganda is already trained enough and is working in that direction in a daily mode. Also Russia was preparing an information attack on Ukraine on global arena. They did special arrangements and preparations for that. Special PR and marketing advisors even from USA such as Stromberg Consulting from New York are involved in that. Kremlin was planning a big gas conflict and information war on Ukraine since summer - Autumn 2009 – Yes, months before the problem became real (!). This special site should inform the world about the gas war of Gazprom against Ukraine. Yes, we are not mistaken, not against Ukrainian Gas Company, but against Ukraine as a sovereign state. Thus Gazprom (Kremlin gas weapon) - against Ukraine (as an independent state).
For this purpose Russia established a special English language site GAZPROMUKRAINEFACTS com. The main purpose for that was informing the world about the last achievements of Gazprom against Ukraine it’s just like a «current report from the front »!
The site was registered and fully established about 2 weeks PRIOR the beginning of the gas conflict on December 12, 2008. Details below:
Registrant:
Stromberg Consulting
1285 Avenue of the Americas
3rd Floor
New York, New York 10019
United States
Registered through: GoDaddy. Inc.
Domain Name: GAZPROMUKRAINEFACTS
Created on: 12-Dec-08
Expires on: 12-Dec-09
Last Updated on: 12-Dec-08
Administrative Contact:
Latz, Chad clatz strombergconsulting com
Stromberg Consulting
1285 Avenue of the Americas
3rd Floor
New York, New York 10019
United States
(646) 935-4336
Technical Contact:
Latz, Chad clatz strombergconsulting com
Stromberg Consulting
1285 Avenue of the Americas
3rd Floor
New York, New York 10019
United States
(646) 935-4336
Domain servers in listed order:
NS. RACKSPACE COM
NS2. RACKSPACE COM
Registry Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Registry Status: clientRenewProhibited
Registry Status: clientTransferProhibited
Registry Status: clientUpdatePr

[kamilla]

Hello everyone, decided to joing your little disput here. I live in Spain, just very involved in politics in Eastern Europe.Looking at Russia's situation nowadays one can see only one thing Russia is desperate for power, all this gaz situation is to prove to Ukraine, all the rest 14 former republics and EU how powerful Russia is. NATO wants to put their base in Poland-Russia will build a military base to *secure* their country. Ukraine want to become a member-russia will do everything they can to stop it.It almost feels they are looking for an anemy to fight agains. Then it is Chechnya, then it is Georgia and Osetia, they all the talks about the Crimea, and now gaz.. So, they want to sell gaz for the european price, but the transit for the*neighbours* ones.
All the conditions they make up, just look like a simple blackmail to me. Trying to keep Ukraine and EU under their control.
All the politics of president Putin-i am not mistaken-Putin, as it is quite clear who is the boss and who is the puppy, based on oil and gaz money..oil price drops down-russian budget is in troubles.everyone know that gaz price is about 6 months delayed from the oil one. so a big drop off ina gaz price will be in march this year, that is why russia is so desperate and making so much mistakes.
honestly i am just thick of Russian agrassive politics,if you can call politics what a gang *Putin Medvedev* is doing.
Greetings from sunny Valencia

[Guest]

Sorry for my english.
From early nintees it was reexport scheme when Gazprom sold gas with 45 USD to Ukraine and Ukraine sold it to Europe with 100 -150 USD. It was sinecure for russian corrupted chiefs (better thiefs) from Gazprom and for Ukranian "independent" chiefs (better thiefs).
It is very interesting why former Gazprom leader and former prime-minister choose end of his career in russian embassy in Ukraine and why Timoshenko called as Gas-princess with billions of dollar when she was vice-prime minister 8 years ago ?
When orange CIA agent (every orange, red, colourless revolution need a lot of money and Soros foundation and others rich "independent" people gave it to him) became president of Ukraine relationship could be broken but easy money smells better than "democracy" and he also join to this sinecure (his brother owner of 27% of RosUkrEnergo) but spliting to the face of Russia during last years. By the way the main conflict between ukranian president and prime-minister to clear off RosUkrEnergo from gas export and I understand Timoshenko, who was out of gas reexport sinecure last years.
Moreover Ukraine has own gas which can fulfil ukranian needs but nothing to sell to Europe. That is why they need low price for russian gas to sell it to Europe with great profit (by the way russia sell to Europe 110 billion cubic m and to Ukraine 55 billion cubic m. Using this numbers You may think that Ukraine is the biggest country of Europe with the best industry)
Russian big boys (after 'lucky days' of work with Ukranian president) decided that it is time to close this 'fair of generosity' and give to ukraine real price for gas.Ukraine leaders were in hysteria (bitter rivals Timoshenko and Yustchenko united when understand that noone will have easy gas money) and begin stole european gas.
Thus this gas crisis is not struggle of Ukranian leaders for Ukranian people and "democracy" (to the point REAL democracy was only some years in ancient Athens when ALL people was voting for ANY decision in their town with one interesting amendment - many of them had slaves ). It is a story - will the russian gas reexport from Ukraine start again and if it will start who divide offshore money. I think Yustchenko's son want to change his VERTU to Diamond Cartier telephone and 650 BMW to Bentley Continental GT. But ordinary people from both side will not have any profit only hatred in the end which is good only for US (separate and rule)
I beg ordinary Russians and Ukranians do not blame each other cause we are brothers.
For Europeans ask to check our corruption leaders accounts in your banks (or smell of the easy illegal money is better than "democracy" and "western values" )
Every event is an iceberg. From mass media we can see only above-water small part but biggest part is under water silence.

[Europe - WEst Belarus]

Yes Russia is strong. I from poor Belarus also know it, but Byelorussians too as well as Ukrainians stole gas from Europe, it is unpleasant to me - when I paid 250 for gas, and the state cannot pay only 120. Only Byelorussians have managed to agree and occupy this business with Russia. Belarus uses both Russia and Europe.

[Olaf2]

“…the principal objection to the project remains that when the pipeline is complete, Italy will be dependent upon it for 30 per cent of natural gas supplies, France for 35 per cent, and West Germany for 38 per cent. As a result those countries may well be subject to coercion or blackmail, devices which have a familiar role in Soviet foreign policy. On three previous occasions the Soviet Union has cut off energy supplies in order to impose political pressure (in 1948 to Yugoslavia, in 1961 to Albania, and in 1962 to China). Western nations have no reason to suppose that they will be immune from such pressures. Moreover, the sale of gas to the West will bring in much hard-needed cash which may then be used to increase Soviet defence spending.”
“TIMES” August 6, 1982

That warning was written 30 year ago! Soviets never used that “gas weapon” because they were too dependent on hard currency coming from West. But aggression policy did not change for KBG officer Putin. He is dreaming about new USSR.
Russia has a good currency deposit now and is playing a big game!
Many years ago it was Yugoslavia, Albania, China – today is Ukraine! The main target for Moscow is Ukrainian GTS (gas transportation system). They do everything to discredit Ukraine as a transit partner. Russia gives no or just a little gas supply (that is what EU observers say) thus Ukrainian system is not able to work properly. Typical Russian cynicism and a pack of lies!
Russia already has a good stake in pipelines in Eastern Europe. That is a real danger for European Community! Don’t be fooled by KGB!

[Dim dimych]

“…the principal objection to the project remains that when the pipeline is complete, Italy will be dependent upon it for 30 per cent of natural gas supplies, France for 35 per cent, and West Germany for 38 per cent. As a result those countries may well be subject to coercion or blackmail, devices which have a familiar role in Soviet foreign policy. On three previous occasions the Soviet Union has cut off energy supplies in order to impose political pressure (in 1948 to Yugoslavia, in 1961 to Albania, and in 1962 to China). Western nations have no reason to suppose that they will be immune from such pressures. Moreover, the sale of gas to the West will bring in much hard-needed cash which may then be used to increase Soviet defence spending.”
“TIMES” August 6, 1982

That warning was written 30 year ago! Soviets never used that “gas weapon” because they were too dependent on hard currency coming from West. But aggression policy did not change for KBG officer Putin. He is dreaming about new USSR.
Russia has a good currency deposit now and is playing a big game!
Many years ago it was Yugoslavia, Albania, China – today is Ukraine! The main target for Moscow is Ukrainian GTS (gas transportation system). They do everything to discredit Ukraine as a transit partner. Russia gives no or just a little gas supply (that is what EU observers say) thus Ukrainian system is not able to work properly. Typical Russian cynicism and a pack of lies!
Russia already has a good stake in pipelines in Eastern Europe. That is a real danger for European Community! Don’t be fooled by KGB!

Dear Frend!
You are thinking and living in 1982 . Everything is changed. Russia is not USSR. We have the same freedom as Europeans and do not want to destroy some one. I work with Europeans and may say that some of italians were shocked when understand that more criminal and corruption in Italy .
There is one problem. Rottshield and Rockfeller families (real owners of Europe and US) did not buy all russian companies using their transnational companies that is why their mass media (which You hearing and watching - You do not have possibility to have REAL information) hunting Russia.
Moreover You can fly to Iraq see real democracy. And You really think it was because of Saddam weapon of mass annihilation ? It was for Rottshield' companies oil (30 % of world oil in Iraq).
Better to think before to say!!!

[SiD]

“…the principal objection to the project remains that when the pipeline is complete, Italy will be dependent upon it for 30 per cent of natural gas supplies, France for 35 per cent, and West Germany for 38 per cent. As a result those countries may well be subject to coercion or blackmail, devices which have a familiar role in Soviet foreign policy. On three previous occasions the Soviet Union has cut off energy supplies in order to impose political pressure (in 1948 to Yugoslavia, in 1961 to Albania, and in 1962 to China). Western nations have no reason to suppose that they will be immune from such pressures. Moreover, the sale of gas to the West will bring in much hard-needed cash which may then be used to increase Soviet defence spending.”
“TIMES” August 6, 1982

That warning was written 30 year ago! Soviets never used that “gas weapon” because they were too dependent on hard currency coming from West. But aggression policy did not change for KBG officer Putin. He is dreaming about new USSR.
Russia has a good currency deposit now and is playing a big game!

Many years ago it was Yugoslavia, Albania, China –today is Ukraine! The main target for Moscow is Ukrainian GTS (gas transportation system). They do everything to discredit Ukraine as a transit partner.

Russia gives no or just a little gas supply (that is what EU observers say) thus Ukrainian system is not able to work properly. Typical Russian cynicism and a pack of lies!

Russia already has a good stake in pipelines in Eastern Europe. That is a real danger for European Community! Don’t be fooled by KGB!

We all will hear soon that Putin will be demaning to get a control on Ukrainian pipes!

Olaf do you have something to say about it? Or parhaps you just think like other person or just have forgotten than you have already posted this using other ID? Or parhaps same source of prapoganda huh? . Parhaps you should add real autor of this masterpiece ? Cmon people do not be fooled by KGB Ukranian patriots or whanever are already at work.

[JHSussex]

There is one problem. Rottshield and Rockfeller families (real owners of Europe and US) did not buy all russian companies using their transnational companies that is why their mass media (which You hearing and watching - You do not have possibility to have REAL information) hunting Russia.
Moreover You can fly to Iraq see real democracy. And You really think it was because of Saddam weapon of mass annihilation ? It was for Rottshield' companies oil (30 % of world oil in Iraq).
Better to think before to say!!!

This is a common tactic when discussing matters of criticism of Russian policy-change the subject. These other things might be worthy criticisms but they do not answer the question in hand and they know it!!!

[AlexAlex]

Hmm, it seems that the common thought in Ukrania may be summirized as this:
"We cannot afford paying real price therefore Russia must ask less for its gas. If not, we will cut the transit!"
Hellooo, USSR was 18 years ago... all these 18 years you have some reasons why you cannot pay.

Personaly, I think that Mersedes S-classe must cost no more than $1000. Why I cannot byu it for that price?

Many people say that Russia tries to influence its neighbours. Its natural, Russia is a very big country, you cannot be free of its influence being near it. And you cannot influence Russia at the same level as Russia influenes Ukraine. This is same as Germany and Slovakia for instance,

[Pete]

There is one problem. Rottshield and Rockfeller families (real owners of Europe and US) did not buy all russian companies using their transnational companies that is why their mass media (which You hearing and watching - You do not have possibility to have REAL information) hunting Russia.
Moreover You can fly to Iraq see real democracy. And You really think it was because of Saddam weapon of mass annihilation ? It was for Rottshield' companies oil (30 % of world oil in Iraq).
Better to think before to say!!!

This is a common tactic when discussing matters of criticism of Russian policy-change the subject. These other things might be worthy criticisms but they do not answer the question in hand and they know it!!!

And another common tactic (but for opposing side) is spamming every russia-related discussion with rusty political and cold-war stereotypes, playing on inborn fears of simple eu people. When they stop talking about "KGB", "USSR" etc on every occasion - only then I would beleive in fair treatment and judgements of my country's deeds. Else, it's just good old russophobic propaganda, intact for centuries. If you try to check archives of 19th centuries, you'd be surprised how British position (and media opinion) towards Russia was similiar to modern one. Though there was no commies, KGB and so on to blame, and csarists weren't conducting any worse expansionist or colonial politics than british imperial government. So regimes change, but hatred lives. And who's responsible for that? Russia alone, who always does everything wrong since Peter the Great times? Sorry, we can't stop being huge country which have to play significant role on european continent and naturally has its own interests. Too bad that anglo-saxons never ever actually respected anyone's interests except their own.

[JHSussex]

This is more nonsense.

You can't compare a commodity with a consumer good. Russian gas, Turkman gas, Norwegian gas. What's the difference? Commodities are traded at the world price, that's why Putin wants to create a gas cartel. Russia doesn't sell 'the Mercedes s class of gas'. It sells just plain gas and has to take the world price, which is falling.

RUSSIA cut the gas, to Ukraine on January 1st, to Europe on 7th. Had they not done so, none of this would be happening.

Russian influence is fine. They can watch Russian films, whatever no problem, but we're talking about 'influence'-maybe even the kind that the USSR had in Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in '68. This level of 'influence' is unacceptable.

[Pete]

This is more nonsense.

You can't compare a commodity with a consumer good. Russian gas, Turkman gas, Norwegian gas. What's the difference? Commodities are traded at the world price, that's why Putin wants to create a gas cartel. Russia doesn't sell 'the Mercedes s class of gas'. It sells just plain gas and has to take the world price, which is falling.

RUSSIA cut the gas, to Ukraine on January 1st, to Europe on 7th. Had they not done so, none of this would be happening.

Russian influence is fine. They can watch Russian films, whatever no problem, but we're talking about 'influence'-maybe even the kind that the USSR had in Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in '68. This level of 'influence' is unacceptable.

Do you REALLY beleive that it was Russia who cut gas off EU?
Just think a bit more about it. What happens to seller, especially who IS NOT monopolist on the market, who deliberately stops providing it's goods or services for its clients, in order to "play muscles", "show power" or whatever? Obviously, it will lose all its customers, maybe not instantly, but quite soon, because noone wants to buy anything from unreliable source, right? If I understand that, and you (as I hope) do understand, then do you really think that Gazprom authorities don't? It's just ignorant individuals from the crowd who can shout nonsense like "let's punish them and cut the gas/oil/whatever else". Top managers of corporations of state importance aren't imbeciles at all, they can calculate consequenses in advance.

Moreover, Gazprom officials WARNED about possible troubles long before 7 jan, 1 jan or even 31 dec dates. Maybe western media just didn't pay enough attention to that, but it was clearly said, that ukranians are delaying negotiations of next year's contract for gas suppying to Ukraine, and if the conract isn't signed or debts payed, Gazprom WOULD definitely stop transfer to ukranians and then it could happen recurrence of 2006 situation. I personally heard that public statement in news at least 1 week before New Year, or maybe even earlier. Anti-russian propaganda screams now that Russia was preparing for the conflict. In truth, it was EXPECTING such turn of events (having bitter experience with ukranians in the past), and made no secret of it. Do you see the difference?

And well, do you really think initial price of 250$ that ukrs declined was that "insanely high" that it could be described as tool of political pressing?

[Ukrajinka]

Hello! I am from Ukraine and I neither support Russia nor Ukraine. I think both Gazprom and RosUkrEnergo are equally corrupt. Oligarchs from both countries cannot divide the bribes and they've got their fellow countrymen, EU, and the whole world believing that gas dispute happened majorly because of political issues between Russia and Ukraine!

[Pete]

[quote="Ukrajinka"]Hello! I am from Ukraine and I neither support Russia nor Ukraine. I think both Gazprom and RosUkrEnergo are equally corrupt. Oligarchs from both countries cannot divide the bribes[/quote]You'd better say "Gazprom and some ukrainian oligarchs" since they own RosUkrEnergo 50 on 50. However Gazprom is almost state corporation (though it's nominaly Public Joint-Stock Company), it gives away huge amount of money as taxes, and state benefits from owning Gazprom share as well. More or less you can see what's about them.
But what can you say about those shady figures on ukrainian side? I'm sure you won't be far from truth, if you say certain ukrainian government officials made a great deal by letting those pirates into gas treasure bay and getting their own slice from the booty.[/quote]

True that Russia has it's own oligarchs, which is a shame, but it doesn't look like they're involved into this crisis.

[Ivan]

Who is winning from this conflict?
Everybody only loses. Russia and Ukraine money and reputation, EU freezes.
I believe there should be a simple solution that will be liked by everyone.

[JHSussex]

> Anti-russian propaganda screams now that Russia . . .

I think this is the root of the problem. There's no such thing as 'anti-Russian' propaganda. People would much prefer to take no interest in Russia. Russia of course hates this above all things. And as for such an impassioned defence of Gazprom, I can't imagine wanting to passionately defend British Gas. The writer must be aware on some level that Gazprom is the arm of the Russian Federation's authoritarian regime. Turn the gas back on, accept a fair price in a falling market, accepting that Russian gas can't be sold to Europe without Ukraine, so Ukraine should not be pushed around, and everything's fine. No more 'propaganda'.

[ukrainian]

I can see ukrainian and russian TV news every day and I want say that it is cold war. Russian politicians use TV and press for popularization untiukraine spirits in Russia and even in Ukraine. Gas it's only lever that help Russia reach target and to influence deeply on Ukraine and EU.
Russian politicians lok like spiteful clowns, urainian and EU like herd of rams