European Union Forums

[Salomo]

Any place where Americans come to, tragedies occurs. USA is Empire of Evil

I would say the very same about Russia.

[SiD]

Any place where Americans come to, tragedies occurs. USA is Empire of Evil

I would say the very same about Russia.

And EU is not involved in any US made tragedy right? . Europe is just angel and US and Russia are spreading evil? WAKE UP!!!

[PATKO]

But for Croats, the most important was to get away from Yugoslavia, where Milosevic had too much influence and wanted a Great Serbia. They became afraid because independence of Krajina would perhaps have resulted in it joining Great Serbia? Croats are also very nationalistic… like you Serbs. With a less nationalistic Croatian government, maybe good autonomy of Krajina would not have been impossible?

This said, also Serbs bombed e.g. Vukovar and Osijek very heavily in their war against Croatia. Perhaps this made Croats act heavily against Krajina?

And… what is your opinion about the genocide of Muslims in Srebrenica by Ratko Mladic?

And remember Ante Gotovina is caught now. But where is Mladic??

Milosevic didn`t wanted a `Great Serbia`, he tryed to save Yugoslavia!
If he wanted to make Great Serbia, he could do it! He had all Yugoslav army in his hands (4th army in Europe, during that years...).
He could trample Croatia for few days!

[PATKO]

With a less nationalistic Croatian government, maybe good autonomy of Krajina would not have been impossible?

This said, also Serbs bombed e.g. Vukovar and Osijek very heavily in their war against Croatia. Perhaps this made Croats act heavily against Krajina?

Why should Serbs stay in Croatia? They were absolutely majority in RSK!

If Croatia don`t want to stay in Yugoslavia, why RSK couldn`t get independence of Croatia?

Is it because it don`t match with EU- American interests???

Do you know what kind crimes had Croats doing to Serbs in WW2?
They killed near 1.000.000 people (95% Serbs) in camp named Jasenovac!
Serbs didn`t wanted to history repeats!

And… what is your opinion about the genocide of Muslims in Srebrenica by Ratko Mladic?

There was no `genocide` on muslims in Srebrenica!!!

Army of Republic Srpske (VRS), didn`t killed everything they meet on their way!The bosnian muslims were doing that, during the war! All the time 1992-1995.!

They were guided by Naser Oric (Haague tribunal got him free... ), they nipped in villages in surrounding of Srebrenica, killing some people (no difference: men, women, old, kid... , they were killing them on awfull ways! Knives, rapes... ), and again returning to `safe zone` of Srebrenica, where VRS had no right to attack them!

Muslim made a genocide on Serbs in suround of Srebrenica, they killed over 3.000 Serbs in they attacks (1992-1995.)

Did you know that???


If you don`t belive, peruse that! But without prejudice!

And remember Ante Gotovina is caught now. But where is Mladic??

Mladic would suround if there is assurance of fair trial!

But Haague tribunal is not fair court.

[Hakan G]

Any place where Americans come to, tragedies occurs. USA is Empire of Evil

I won't say so. A lot of great achievements were made by Americans in maintaining peace.

[sasha]

I generally agree with your thesis Salomo, but in the exYugoslavia case it couldn't be used without double standards. People outside exYU isn't aware about some things and could not see problem as a hole. There was Yugoslavia before Milošević. He was excuse, more than reason, to excape Yugoslavia. There was problems in that country back in '70s when therorists (mainly fashists) have planted bombs and tried to start rebelion at the same scenario as it was done at '90s it was called "maspok", and they were mainly Croats and Slovenians. It is sad that nobody want to talk about that. For us here it is obvious that '90s was just the same, just better prepared and conducted in the weakened country. It is supported by exYU fashistic centers which ran away after WWII (Croatian Ustashas and Domobrans, Slovenian WhiteGuard's, Albanian Iridenta) which was all connected to other fashistic organisations.

Serbs living in the same country was just a frase in Serbia which was symbolizing struggle for protecting our old country which was synchronyzly betrayed. It was just taken out of the context and put in wrong one. If others were patriots (whch wasn't) they could say the same thing without conflict to the Serbian story.

Strenthening of nationalism in Serbia is just reflection of others nationalisms, even fashism. Serbia was known among Yugoslavia to have had the most Yugoslavians among Serbs because they cared less then others about own, old Serbian nation, but were strongest protectors of mutual country.

Rising strengths of right wing in the whole Europe, and the World, is the obvious thing that must raise some alarms. Desintegrating of YU was their big victory and signal that they are strong enough now to raise from ash. There must have been some errors in Yugoslavia (just as it is in other countries), but it was the people which was not wise enough and that betrayed it.

[Salomo]

There was no `genocide` on muslims in Srebrenica!!!

COME ON!!! Whole Europe knows there has been one. Go and say that Bosnian Serbs were not the only ones who committed genocides, ok, but don’t deny a fact which has definitely been proved.

I have glimpsed fast at some pages which try to deny the whole thing (http://real-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/) and put all the crimes on the Muslim side, but I classify this as one very incredible conspiracy theory. It claims that most of the 8000 killed Muslim men are still alive and have been smuggled away abroad. But Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre) states that

So far, more than 5,600 victims of genocide have been identified through DNA analysis.

So count by yourself… This is the biggest genocide in Europe since the holocaust.

They were guided by Naser Oric (Haague tribunal got him free... ), they nipped in villages in surrounding of Srebrenica, killing some people (no difference: men, women, old, kid... , they were killing them on awfull ways! Knives, rapes... ), and again returning to `safe zone` of Srebrenica, where VRS had no right to attack them!

Muslim made a genocide on Serbs in suround of Srebrenica, they killed over 3.000 Serbs in they attacks (1992-1995.)

Did you know that???

Other sides probably committed genocides too, and should be punished for them, but Srebrenica, done by Bosnian Serbs, was the worst one of the Yugoslav wars of the 1990’s. And it is no excuse at all to do a genocide if other parts have been doing it too. Men just taken away from women and children, brought to the wood and then shot one by one. 8000 people.

Of course it is wrong if this Naser Oric has been freed by the Hague tribunal, in case the things your accusations are true.

But about Alija Izetbegovic, I do not believe he represented an Islamist threat to Bosnia. Please read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Islamic_Declaration

[The “Islamic Declaration” is a general treaty upon Islam and politics, trying to conciliate progress and Islamic tradition, and in which Bosnia is not even mentioned. The main idea is that the Qur'an allows modernization, but that there would be no modernization without roots in the Qur'an. To this end Izetbegovic cites kemalist Turkey as a negative example of root loss, ending in economic stagnation and analphabetism, and Japan as a positive example, in which keeping its own culture allowed modernization and economic growth.

Izetbegovic affirms that an Islamic government is not possible but in the context of an Islamic society, which can exist only when the absolute majority of the population is constituted by sincere and practising Muslims. On these basis, it resulted impossible to theorize an Islamic government in Bosnia, where Muslims, even only by name, were a minority.

I have not read the book, but I already have the feeling that treating Izetbegovic as a fundamentalist is as stupid as fearing the Turkish moderate islamist party AKP to wanting to introduce sharia in Turkey. AKP is a moderate party, comparable to Western “Christian-democrat” parties, nothing more fearable than that.

Another question to Bosnian Serbs: what was the purpose of the blockade of Sarajevo, why shooting from mountains on this city populated by peaceful civilians, a town which has always been multiethnic?? One could call this barbarism. The world really saw mainly Bosnian Serbs doing all kinds of ununderstandable things…

Why should Serbs stay in Croatia? They were absolutely majority in RSK!

If Croatia don`t want to stay in Yugoslavia, why RSK couldn`t get independence of Croatia?

Is it because it don`t match with EU- American interests???

Do you know what kind crimes had Croats doing to Serbs in WW2?
They killed near 1.000.000 people (95% Serbs) in camp named Jasenovac!
Serbs didn`t wanted to history repeats!

As I said, RS Krajina was (perhaps the only front) where Serbs were less to blame than their counterparts, from my point of view. Croats were very nationalistic and I can also understand Serbs’ fear against Ustasha methods. Though, Krajina looks geographically like Transnistria, narrow piece of land close to another border, one may think: is it impossible to solve this another way than again a new state? But these thoughts are only those of “map estheticians”, I admit. In principle, Serbs would have earned an own state there. I wonder, did they negotiate at all with Croatia or did they just proclaim the new state?

Russians and Serbs have the same problem: in the “big, federal states” (USSR and Yugoslavia) they were spread a little everywhere, but other nationalities were less spread. As nationalism was forbidden in the “federal state”, they did not get the possibility to realise, that they were living in a “foreign” region while living elsewhere than in Russia/Serbia. It would perhaps have been better if the rulers of the federal state would have thought a little “what to do if/when this kind of state will finish”. Of course this is hindsight… I have no solution, except that federal states containing different nations on this side of the Atlantic are seldom a good idea. (Something for EU to think about…)

All this said, I however am not opposing an independent “Republika Srpska” in Bosnia. In fact, I was very surprised Bosnia-Herzegovina was not divided after 1995. After such a cruel war… One difficulty is again the shape of the regions, no clear shape like… Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Chechnya… just a zigzagging border. Be independent but make it with the territory you have now, not a bigger territory. A pity that you did not realise already in 1992 that you can not take whole Bosnia-Herzegovina.

I wonder if someone should not soon invent a kind of solution of “fuzzy borders”, with the principle of e.g. municipalities having the right to choose to which their country belongs… This could have been an excellent solution for Bosnia-Herzegovina, provided that police forces could cooperate with each other while searching criminals (in case not, this could have to be done by UN troops).

[PATKO]

@salomo

Other sides probably committed genocides too, and should be punished for them, but Srebrenica, done by Bosnian Serbs, was the worst one of the Yugoslav wars of the 1990’s. And it is no excuse at all to do a genocide if other parts have been doing it too. Men just taken away from women and children, brought to the wood and then shot one by one. 8000 people.

- There is not such thing as `the worst` crime, all crimes are bad!

- You wrote ``8.000 people (Bosnian muslims) were killed by shotting one by one in forest...``
that`s not right!
that is inposible to be done...

Be sure that you don`t know all things that hapened in Srebrenica, and other places in 1990`s.
There is always propaganda, and other that take part of influences...

So, this number of 8.000 (untill now buried near 3.000, the 8.000 isn`t confirmed, it`s probably augmented...) are mostly soldiers who were killed at battlefiel, they were kiling other soldiers, and they`ve been killed...I`m sory because of that, but that are NOT crimes!

Other people, were killed by lokal people, who were revenging their families who`ve been killed by muslims...

[Yalta1945]

Of course, there were reports questioning the events at Srebrenica:
"Researchers and Former UN Officials Challenge Portrayal of Events at Srebrenica", July 12, 2005
http://www.srebrenica-report.com/press.htm

However the facts as they are know today are so that 8,000 people are said to be slaughtered:
„KAMENICA, Bosnia (Reuters) - Forensic experts said on Wednesday they had unearthed the remains of 362 Muslim victims of the 1995 Srebrenica massacre from a mass grave in eastern Bosnia.
It was the 10th mass grave found in the village of Kamenica, in an area labeled "Death Valley," that contained the remains of many of about 8,000 Muslim men and boys killed by Bosnian Serb forces as they fled Srebrenica in July 1995.“
Reuters, September 24, 2008
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... =worldNews
"Bosnian experts unearth more Srebrenica bodies"

- There is not such thing as `the worst` crime, all crimes are bad!

Crimes are bad but some crimes are heavier - this being accepted by all states in their courts of justice.

Other people, were killed by lokal people, who were revenging their families who`ve been killed by muslims...

Vicious circle of violence. We tend to excuse ourselves, blaming somebody or something else, even the war of external elements, for the evil which is mastered and executed by us, humans, because we don’t want to feel guilt. It is hard to advice people on the behaviour in extraordinary situations, but human beings have their consciousness and mind to understand their personal responsibility. Someone has to be brave to stand up and say that it was enough; otherwise the war will never end, as there will always be those who would want to revenge. In fact, it would just cause another range of indiscriminate violence, multiplying those who wish to revenge (as well as those who are appalled by such crimes – this remark is made in case somebody thinks of the option of total annihilation of the enemy’s population as an implementable solution in the conflict). These cases should be dealt with in the court. Is there any other option?

[Bosnian_realistiK]

The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as Srebrenica Genocide was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska . In addition to the Army of Republika Srpska, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre. Prior to the genocide, the United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.


The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II

[PATKO]

There were crimes in Srebrenica, but there wasn`t genocide!

[Newrussian town]

We (Russians) are always support you, but you have a lot of people that want to join EU and NATO, your government is prowestern. Our power is not enough to protect you, but if your government will take our side I think we could help, a lot of volunteers (from Russia) fought on your side. You don't need EU you need to come back to your roots.

[Bosnian_realistiK]

ICJ confirmed that there was genocide in Srebrenica, that's the fact, and you have to live with that...

In February 2007 the International Court of Justice (ICJ) concurred with the ICTY judgement that the acts committed at Srebrenica consisted a genocide, stating:

The Court concludes that the acts committed at Srebrenica falling within Article II (a) and (b) of the Convention were committed with the specific intent to destroy in part the group of the Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina as such; and accordingly that these were acts of genocide, committed by members of the VRS in and around Srebrenica from about 13 July 1995

[Newrussian town]

ICJ confirmed that there was genocide in Srebrenica, that's the fact, and you have to live with that...

In February 2007 the International Court of Justice (ICJ) concurred with the ICTY judgement that the acts committed at Srebrenica consisted a genocide, stating:

The Court concludes that the acts committed at Srebrenica falling within Article II (a) and (b) of the Convention were committed with the specific intent to destroy in part the group of the Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina as such; and accordingly that these were acts of genocide, committed by members of the VRS in and around Srebrenica from about 13 July 1995

I Don’t believe any western courts, they are representatives of USA will. But I can believe that it was some war crimes. But do you know war is war.

[Bosnian_realistiK]

Don't Forget Srebrenica. Keep Memory of 7/11/1995 Alive.


Srebrenica Genocide is not a matter of anybody's opinion; it's a judicial fact recognized first by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and subsequently by the International Court of Justice.

[Newrussian town]

Don't Forget Srebrenica. Keep Memory of 7/11/1995 Alive.


Srebrenica Genocide is not a matter of anybody's opinion; it's a judicial fact recognized first by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and subsequently by the International Court of Justice.

May be, international law was broken by USA in 2001,and EU in 2007 so RF has another opinion for this incident .I don’t want to say that it was alright but we have some concerns.

[PATKO]

We (Russians) are always support you, but you have a lot of people that want to join EU and NATO, your government is prowestern. Our power is not enough to protect you, but if your government will take our side I think we could help, a lot of volunteers (from Russia) fought on your side. You don't need EU you need to come back to your roots.

Thank you for all good thinks you`ve done for us, but America and its sattelites are trying to manage all the world...
There is no any juctice from American side, only their interests!
Haague tribunal is managed by Americans, they are only convicting Serbs for all crimes in B&H, 1992-1995!

Definition of genocide do not correlates with events in Srebrenica in 1995.

[sektor_Gaza]

I love Serbia with all my heart! Serbs, you are my brothers!

[solzhenitsyn08]

BE QUIET AND HAPPY! ALL EUROPEANS SHALL LIVE ONE DAY UNDER THE FLAG OF UNITED EUROPE AS THEY DID IT IN THE HISTORY UNDER THE "FULL OF SERENITY" SKIES OF PAX ROMANA!

[Benn]

BE QUIET AND HAPPY! ALL EUROPEANS SHALL LIVE ONE DAY UNDER THE FLAG OF UNITED EUROPE AS THEY DID IT IN THE HISTORY UNDER THE "FULL OF SERENITY" SKIES OF PAX ROMANA!

Why should we live under a flag? it is not necessary at all...we are happy how we live at the moment....We live on the same continent but all of us have a history, are different and all we need that independence for what our ancestors fought! and we already recognized EU flag...and EU money, and EU principles...

[Lenin666]

http://vk.com/reg7690296