European Union Forums

[SiD]

After all he could be shocked and frightened and dozen dead people could be seen like hundreds to him

Justr try to think logically - what do you think the military convoy is? Couple of soldiers? What will be if missile hits the lorry full of soldiers? How many people in the team on the military boat? How many people in the tank crew? Now try to calculate.

You can chek "the times" archive btw. Names of witnesses are given.

If boat or tank or truck is destroyed it doesnt mean all who were inside are dead. Besides how can i calculate if i do not know how many units were in convoy, not to mention that i cant check out how many carryed people and crew members died? It is work of officials. And surely i cant quess numbers using wounded georgian soldiers talk. Of course you can doubt official death toll, and it easily could be lowered. But all doubts will be just speculations anyway.

[Steven]

Today, the two Russian prisoners, caught in August (Avtandila Kelesaev and his son) were freed.
This is probably happening due to the easening of the conflict.

[Iordan]

Helen
Is it possible that in the next following years South Ossetia is recognized by other countries than Russia? I am not speaking about Cuba or other Russia's allies, I'm talking about European states. What if tomorrow Russia will hand in an ultimatum making Europeans recognize S. Ossetia in order to maintain gas supplying.

I don’t think so.
It’s impossible. The main problem of Southossetian recognition is its location. If the South Ossetia weren’t border about Russia it would be recognized by European countries in the time of first war because Georgians are nationalistic.
The main Slogan Georgians is GEORGIA for GEORGIANS.
But it wasn’t only slogan. Georgians killed many ossetians in Georgia and in the South Ossetia. The government of the Soviet Union was not able to stop that since Gorbachev wanted to save the Soviet Union.
In the early 90s was such case
helicopter element of the Soviet troops was at Tskhinval but one day When 5000 Georgian militants came into Tskhinval at night that element left the South Ossetia. Soldiers of that element wrote on wall of building Ossetians, you were betrayed

The WEST will never recognize the South Ossetia

But I think they can live without western recognition. more important thing for them is that statement of the first Georgian president Gamksakhurdia “I will come with 200000 troops. None Ossetians will be in the land of the South Ossetia” would never be realized.

Russia will never act as you say

[gomboreli]

Iordan, your name is quite popular in Bulgaria, it also sounds like a Biblical river and an Arabic country, but you still very much sound Russian.
Tskhinval?! If a final letter so irritates you, let's cross them out everywhere and see what we'll get: Mosco, Bal, Zagre, Hagu, Grozn, Bak, Sofi, Kie.. Try to find out about an etimology of Tskhinvali and you may think twice before you write the name that deranged way again.
As you seem so well-informed, you can probably do me a favour and supply me with some more information about the events you have described:
- at least which year and month in early 90s those 5000 came, whether they arrived by battle tanks, trucks or on foot;
- about the public speach, a TV or newspaper interview where Gamsakhurdia made such an appalling threat;
- in autonomies they possibly couldn't accomplish the mission which that slogan implied, but how come did they fail to do it in other parts of Georgia?
Seriously talking now, just too much of lies for a man posting for the first time.

[independent]

The WEST will never recognize the South Ossetia

Indeed we don't have any other possibility than recognize South Ossetia - Yes it will take some time
(maybe 5-10 years), but we will do it.
You see - for ethical reasons we must honor peoples own will. And It is clear that people in S-Ossetia
are not willing to belong to Georgia. Common sense says that You can't force them to join Georgia
again - not after what Saakashvili did to them.

[M.Helen]

I believe the future will make South Ossetia be divided into several parts. I doubt all the population wants to be independent from Georgia. Thus, I am sure separatists will appear.

[gomboreli]

I believe the future will make South Ossetia be divided into several parts. I doubt all the population wants to be independent from Georgia. Thus, I am sure separatists will appear.

People talking about 'the independence of South Ossetia' can be divided into comics, hypocrites and fools. Independence means non-dependence. Ireland for example gained it when it ceded from UK, so did Slovenia from Yugoslavia. As for the Tskhinvali area, players there were Russia and Georgia. Before August both sides were in control of 1/3 of this ex-autonomy while the rest 1/3 was uninhabited and thus neutral. During the war Moscow militarily occupied, de facto annexed it and made its proxies cleanse it from ethnic Georgians. Therefore, at this stage there seems no prospect to any political process in this occupied monoethnic area.
A creeping annexation started more than a decade ago, drastically intensified after a leader change in the Kremlin and was intended for building a separate quasi-state with the consequent anschluss plan which consisted of all elements of colonization, passportization first of all. Tskhinvali was flooded with active KBG and military cadres, Barankevichs, Morozovs and scores of others from Moscow and also Vladikavkaz. A few local Ossetians were used for decoration as well. Therefore, the fact that Tbilisi has no jurisdiction over this area doesn't mean that the latter is independent. Quid pro quo, Russia has it in full extent. So I'm wondering how one can seriously consider a non-existing independence.

[independent]

People talking about 'the independence of South Ossetia' can be divided into comics, hypocrites and fools. Independence means non-dependence.

Independence is more about having right to decide yourself what to do. If S-Ossetians are willing to be
depended of russia - or even to join it - it is their own business. What comes to Your "classification" - You
should give some arguments why we are comics, hypocrites and fools. Might be You lack sense of realism ?

[gomboreli]

If S-Ossetians are willing to be depended of russia - or even to join it - it is their own business.

I doubt. Tskhinvali is home of Ossetians, but it's not their homeland. They represent a diaspora only and the right of self-determination is applied to those living on their historic land. Back to the real situation on the ground, it's different indeed. I'd see what Russians would say if one day the Chinese become majority somewhere in neighbouring Khabarovsk, proclaim autonomy, get Chinese passports and eventually want to become a part of that country. Would that be their business only?

[SiD]

And it is interesting term. Historic land. What is that?

[independent]

I doubt. Tskhinvali is home of Ossetians, but it's not their homeland. They represent a diaspora only and the right of self-determination is applied to those living on their historic land.

You must be kidding - Yes ??
There is not such a thing than historic land - or then we are all only tenants of ancient countries (clans) - and
by ancient I mean REALLY ancient, not some 2000-3000 years.
So it leaves us to situation where they still have better rights to that land than Georgia has.

Back to the real situation on the ground, it's different indeed. I'd see what Russians would say if one day the Chinese become majority somewhere in neighbouring Khabarovsk, proclaim autonomy, get Chinese passports and eventually want to become a part of that country. Would that be their business only?

Passports has nothing to do with it - If some area really wants to belong to an other country, it is wise
to let it go. So simple - don't make things too complicated. But might be You prefer "US - way" -
and are willing to force people to live in a situation they don't like ?

[gomboreli]

So it leaves us to situation where they still have better rights to that land than Georgia has.

All names, including that of Tskhinvali, churches, monasteries, cemeteries are Georgian in that region. A few existing Ossetian names are originated from some Bolshevik ringleaders, Znauri for example. There wasn't a single day in the whole history - prove me wrong with dates otherwise - when this area belonged to any state, other than Georgia. So one should have a little historic reason to claim some land.
Jews have been spread all around the world. Would you support tens of new Israelis then or several more Armenias in the MidEastern countries just because these nationals reside there? Majority in the British city of Luton are Pakistanis. Would you advise them to struggle for independence despite living far away from the historic land?! I could give you scores of other examples.
Homeland of Ossetians is on the North side of the Caucasus. They live in large numbers in all Eastern Georgian cities.. Wait a minute, maybe these cities are not Georgian then, either?

[independent]

All names, including that of Tskhinvali, churches, monasteries, cemeteries are Georgian in that region. A few existing Ossetian names are originated from some Bolshevik ringleaders, Znauri for example. There wasn't a single day in the whole history - prove me wrong with dates otherwise - when this area belonged to any state, other than Georgia. So one should have a little historic reason to claim some land.
Jews have been spread all around the world. Would you support tens of new Israelis then or several more Armenias in the MidEastern countries just because these nationals reside there? Majority in the British city of Luton are Pakistanis. Would you advise them to struggle for independence despite living far away from the historic land?! I could give you scores of other examples.
Homeland of Ossetians is on the North side of the Caucasus. They live in large numbers in all Eastern Georgian cities.. Wait a minute, maybe these cities are not Georgian then, either?

You didn't get the point - there is not such a thing than historic land. Or You think e.g Egypt or Rome can
tell us that they have historical right for most mediterranean countries ? Or indians can claim whole US
territory for themselves ? Or Tatars can claim Georgia ? You see it is nothing but ridiculous to insist
someone have "historical right for land". If we begin to accept that kind of attitude - we should first define
what period exactly counts - and different countries could never find an agreement with that (e.g I don't
believe You to be happy if someone decide that 1960 is the year when everything was correct - and we
must accept borders which were in force then).

Today we can't make decisions based on where someone lived for 2000-3000 years ago - we need
to make decisions which are acceptable basing population today.

Btw. If You lose a poker game - are You afterward claiming that You still have historical right
for that money You lost ?

[Aeneas]

Btw. If You lose a poker game - are You afterward claiming that You still have historical right
for that money You lost ?

It all depends (even if you're independent ) - is this a Western we're watching? If so, are you hiding a six-shooter in your boot? If yes, is it loaded? If yes, are you willing to use it? If your yes/no answer ratio tilts towards yes, then there is a good chance that you have a historical right for that money.

[gomboreli]

There is not such a thing than historic land.

If so, how come Israel was established in Palestine and not, say, in Madagascar?
The very idea of bureaucratic institutions such as UN, OSCE, EU and all other international organizations includes acting as mediator in solving conflicts. This is why the international law was introduced, where rules were clearly defined. The priority No 1 in this law is inviolability of borders. Once the states agree with principles set in this law, they agree to behave in a civilized way. However, what we see around in reality is a forcible break-up of certain states and redraw of their borders in the Balkans and Caucasus.

Today we can't make decisions based on where someone lived for 2000-3000 years ago - we need
to make decisions which are acceptable basing population today.

We're supposed to abandon then the above-mentioned principle and announce worldwide that whoever lives wherever can become independent from the host country. Any idea how many thousand countries we'd get instead of these current 200+, how much blood would be shed and overall what the world would look like?
Just curious, in which country did you grow up such a cosmopolitan?!

[independent]

If so, how come Israel was established in Palestine and not, say, in Madagascar?

Jews prefer selected area for other possibilities - if not Israel could be somewhere else.

The very idea of bureaucratic institutions such as UN, OSCE, EU and all other international organizations includes acting as mediator in solving conflicts. This is why the international law was introduced, where rules were clearly defined. The priority No 1 in this law is inviolability of borders. Once the states agree with principles set in this law, they agree to behave in a civilized way. However, what we see around in reality is a forcible break-up of certain states and redraw of their borders in the Balkans and Caucasus.

Borders has always been and will be dynamic - it is called realism. It doesn't count how many laws and
international organization we have. Wheren situation becomes critical (as it became in Georgia )
- there are always ways to re-negotiate new borders. Just like it was e.g. in Kosovo

We're supposed to abandon then the above-mentioned principle and announce worldwide that whoever lives wherever can become independent from the host country. Any idea how many thousand countries we'd get instead of these current 200+, how much blood would be shed and overall what the world would look like?
Just curious, in which country did you grow up such a cosmopolitan?!

You again don't get the point - S-Ossetia got independence not only because they wanted it - but because
of Saakashvili aggression against them. It made it very clear to the rest of the world that it is not fair to
require S-Ossetians to remain with Georgia.
There are not so many places in the world were lunatics like Saakashvili are in power - so there will not
be need for many new countries. Conversely the importance of being an independent country and
nationalism will wane, because it is more and more important to witch union You belong rather than
nationality.

[gomboreli]

The logic and terminology used by Independent pretty much sounds as another piece of Cacaphonia from the Putin's propaganda machine. And probably I wouldn't reply at all, but I can't refrain myself from quoting this masterpiece:

It made it very clear to the rest of the world that it is not fair to require S-Ossetians to remain with Georgia.

All the people on Earth have to know from now on: 'the rest of the world ' has been Putin's Russia and Marxist Sandinistas.
Good job, independent

[independent]

The logic and terminology used by Independent pretty much sounds as another piece of Cacaphonia from the Putin's propaganda machine. And probably I wouldn't reply at all, but I can't refrain myself from quoting this masterpiece:

It made it very clear to the rest of the world that it is not fair to require S-Ossetians to remain with Georgia.

All the people on Earth have to know from now on: 'the rest of the world ' has been Putin's Russia and Marxist Sandinistas.
Good job, independent

You are absolutely wrong If You really suppose that only russians think so. OSCE report was the last drop.
You see - we don't like the idea that S-Ossatia and Ahkbasia felt so clearly to russian influence room,
but in the other hand we can't deny that Saakashvili made a terrible thing to them. So - as bitter is it - we
can't (and are not willing) to do something. Western moral can't ever accept lunatic actions against own
people. We will keep pretending to demand those areas back to Georgia - for a while - then we just let it be.
Saakashvili will never be trusted by us again - he didn't cheat only georgians but also EU and US
by lying about everything. So keep on dreaming

[Tamara_Georgia Girl]

OSCE report ?! when the observers of this organization are hidden and make reports like that i can say directly that i don't trust that !!! the War is awful thing, but when u investigate about what really happened u have to be objective and transparent for all.. BTW there is some evidences that OSCE report can be russian financed job, as the real observers were not involved into that subject at all.

[independent]

OSCE report ?! when the observers of this organization are hidden and make reports like that i can say directly that i don't trust that !!! the War is awful thing, but when u investigate about what really happened u have to be objective and transparent for all.. BTW there is some evidences that OSCE report can be russian financed job, as the real observers were not involved into that subject at all.

You must be kidding ... Yeah ? Or don't You really know what OSCE is ?
It is not some populist organization - and OSCE reports are not published because it is an international
commitment that OSCE keeps as low profile as possible in those kind of issues.
There was 3 OSCE observers present in Tshinkvali that time - they all told the same.
Who You think are "the real observers" who were not involved into that subject ?

[Iordan]

by Military
Ossetian military units – was in full readiness for war

I suppose it’s really because theatre of battle is their home

by Military
Ossetian military units were perfectly equipped with all types of small arms and heavy armor.

Until 2008 august war ossetian soldiers were often shown by TV. And most of them didn’t have bodies armour and none of them didn’t have helmets.
The main ossetian troops were not in the capital of the South Ossetia Tskhinval they were in the mountainous village Java because under agreement they didn’t have right to be in Tskhinval
In Tskhinval were ossetian militiamen, Russian peacekeepers, ossetian volunteers who fought against sanded Georgian troops and peaceful dwellers sitting in cellar

Those not numerous units had fought against Georgian troops until Russian army scared Georgian “heroes”

by Military
Ossetian military units was quickly collapsed under the fire of our heavy artillery

You are right if you told about defence as System but you can not say that ossetians after they stepped to northern part of their capital didn’t fought against invaders. Tens of dead bodies of Georgian soldiers in Tskhinval and tens of dead bodies of soldiers of special force were shown by TV.

Russian military expert said that defence of Tskhinval was unreal and all members of people's volunteer corps who fought in Tskhinaval were like kamikazes. Russia soldiers save life these militiamen, peaceful dwellers and Russian peacekeepers.
Explain me ..
Ossetians fought against invaders for their capital why didn’t Georgians fight against Russians for homeland city of Stalin, Gory…
Is Georgia homeland of Georgians? Maybe you wait for help of Englishmen, the Poles etc.
It was very strangely you president made a statement that “aim of Russians is all Georgia, help us,” but you didn’t fight against Russia though before war Saakashvili said that “Georgian troops is mightiest Caucasian one”
May be some from the west understand how they lie to ...

by Military
Successfully winning the first stage of the battle

What aims of the first stage of the battle was?

[googie]

Georgia, Ukraine, Baltic States, Poland are political prostitutes rather than democracies. When you pay them they love you. When you pay them more they starting to shit on your Neighbours.


Anecdote:
Saakashvili stays on bridge and sees the piece of shit passing by in the river waters.
Shit says: Hello my colleague!
What kind of colleague am i for you ? , Saaki shvilli replies
Shit added: We're both are from the internal organs of the United States

[RussianRussianRussian]

I am working at everyday basis with russian voters. I am going door to door with some municipal tasks and talking with people. I tell you - 99% of russian hate the idea, that people should have responsibility to interact and control government. I can call it "the silence of the lamb".

You any speak delirium, you likely say lies, that you Russian.

[Mata Hari]

Everywhere i see word ''delirium'', i remember russian boy who uses this word in every topic to insult others opinion!! please just use one ID, its not a shame ! and don't try to show that russians are major on tis forum...

[that guest again]

Will "rubbish" or "delusion" suit you Mata Hari with your mataharisms or matamarasmus?