Macedonia Name Issue

Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 27 Jan 2009, 15:05

Sergey wrote:What would happen if FYR Macedonia would be called simply Macedonia further? Nothing special. So is it a real problem?

Our Israeli friends could say that there were no Arabs in Palestines 2000 years ago and what? Should the Palestinian be denied of their right to have own state on this ground? Can they be denied a right to call it as they wish?

Yes, Slavic tribes came to this land 'only' 1500 years ago. So what? Maybe they have not right call themselves Macedonians?

The objection that Greece is making looks silly.


Did Greece ever say there were no Slavic tribes arriving in the Macedonia region? No. In fact Greece have been the biggest helper in building FYROM since its independence from Yugoslavia.

Greece & FYROM are fighting over the "Macedonia" name.

The Arabs in Palestine & the Israel are fighting over territory. The Arabs want it to be Palestine & the Jews want it to be part of Israel.

You look silly by comparing the two issues.

So Sergey, do think the Northern Province of Greece whom has been called "Macedonia" for thousands of year before the Slavic tribes arrived & is still called Macedonia today, should stop being named Macedonia & let FYROM have the sole rights to the Macedonia name?

Yes, I agree the Skopjia run country has the right to call themselves as they wish, but not by a name which already exists.
Greece will exept "North Macedonia", "New Macedonia" or "Slavic Macedonia" but they want to be the only Macedonians. You even know they they are of Slavic background & even said it yourself "Yes, Slavic tribes came to this land 'only' 1500 years ago." So why cant the countries names, nationality & language be Slavic Macedonia?
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Sergey » 27 Jan 2009, 15:51

Hellenicoz,

I would like to ask: what would happen if FYR Macedonia would be called simply Macedonia? Nothing special I believe.

The Anglo-Saxons call themselves Brits or Britons and their country is Great Britain while native people, real Brits (Celtic people) were expelled and now live in Wells and NW part of France. By the way Anglo-Saxon invasion happened exactly that time when Slavic tribes came to Macedonia.

Agree it would be silly to demand to change the name of the country - Great Britain just because another people live on this land now.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 28 Jan 2009, 14:01

Sergey wrote:Hellenicoz,

I would like to ask: what would happen if FYR Macedonia would be called simply Macedonia? Nothing special I believe.

The Anglo-Saxons call themselves Brits or Britons and their country is Great Britain while native people, real Brits (Celtic people) were expelled and now live in Wells and NW part of France. By the way Anglo-Saxon invasion happened exactly that time when Slavic tribes came to Macedonia.

Agree it would be silly to demand to change the name of the country - Great Britain just because another people live on this land now.


Then you would have a territory named Macedonia & its neighbours on the otherside of the border would be Macedonia. Yet the people, the language, the history etc is very different.

My question is why did the former Yugoslav leader Tito change this Southern Yugoslav region from Vardarska to Macedonia when Greece's Northern Province was already Macedonia?
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Sergey » 28 Jan 2009, 16:24

Hellenicoz wrote:
Sergey wrote:Hellenicoz,

I would like to ask: what would happen if FYR Macedonia would be called simply Macedonia? Nothing special I believe.

The Anglo-Saxons call themselves Brits or Britons and their country is Great Britain while native people, real Brits (Celtic people) were expelled and now live in Wells and NW part of France. By the way Anglo-Saxon invasion happened exactly that time when Slavic tribes came to Macedonia.

Agree it would be silly to demand to change the name of the country - Great Britain just because another people live on this land now.


Then you would have a territory named Macedonia & its neighbours on the otherside of the border would be Macedonia. Yet the people, the language, the history etc is very different.

My question is why did the former Yugoslav leader Tito change this Southern Yugoslav region from Vardarska to Macedonia when Greece's Northern Province was already Macedonia?
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 28 Jan 2009, 23:27

Lots of Mexicans have crossed the Mexico-USA border & have been living in the USA's southern state of Calafornia. These Mexican's now consider themselves Calafornians. If they now decide they want independence from Mexico & the northern region of Mexico renamed the "Republic of Calafornia" with the capital Tijuana. Is that right? Thats whats the Slav Macedonians have done.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Sergey » 29 Jan 2009, 09:42

Hellenicoz wrote:Lots of Mexicans have crossed the Mexico-USA border & have been living in the USA's southern state of Calafornia. These Mexican's now consider themselves Calafornians. If they now decide they want independence from Mexico & the northern region of Mexico renamed the "Republic of Calafornia" with the capital Tijuana. Is that right? Thats whats the Slav Macedonians have done.


So Hellenicoz, you fear that small and poor FYR Macedonia would invade Greece - a member of NATO that has own strong armed forces? I'm unable to imagine that it ever could happen.

As for Mexico issue then let's recall that there is New-Mexico state in the USA and there is no problem. Mexico doesn't demand that the state should be renamed, that it could be regarded as approval to annex the whole Mexico to join it to the USA. And note, the USA doesn't demand that Mexico must be renamed to 'Old Mexico'.

California (historical area) had been divided between the USA and Mexico. But Mexico doesn't demand that the Americans must rename it to 'Nothern California' or 'New California'. It would be silly.

A name of my brother is Alexander. Would you demand that he must change his name?
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 29 Jan 2009, 14:41

Sergey wrote:
Hellenicoz wrote:Lots of Mexicans have crossed the Mexico-USA border & have been living in the USA's southern state of Calafornia. These Mexican's now consider themselves Calafornians. If they now decide they want independence from Mexico & the northern region of Mexico renamed the "Republic of Calafornia" with the capital Tijuana. Is that right? Thats whats the Slav Macedonians have done.


So Hellenicoz, you fear that small and poor FYR Macedonia would invade Greece - a member of NATO that has own strong armed forces? I'm unable to imagine that it ever could happen.

As for Mexico issue then let's recall that there is New-Mexico state in the USA and there is no problem. Mexico doesn't demand that the state should be renamed, that it could be regarded as approval to annex the whole Mexico to join it to the USA. And note, the USA doesn't demand that Mexico must be renamed to 'Old Mexico'.

California (historical area) had been divided between the USA and Mexico. But Mexico doesn't demand that the Americans must rename it to 'Nothern California' or 'New California'. It would be silly.

A name of my brother is Alexander. Would you demand that he must change his name?


1. To be accepted in the Balkans you must have thousands years of history & FYROM are stealing Greece's history & name. Nothing to do about invading & wars. FYROM are too small to fear. Very simple question once again is, why did they chose to change their name from Vardarska to Macedonia when Macedonia already existed in Northern Greece?

2. Mexico & New Mexico as you can see are different names. Macedonia & Macedonia are the same names. Just like Mexico have no problem with New Mexico, Greece have no problem with New Macedonia.

The USA's southern state is California. Mexico's most northern state is "Baja California". Yes not Northern or New, but Baja.

3.Your brother Alexander has a loverly name. It is a very common name in Greece, Russia & all over the world. Why would I damand to change his name? Its proud to see people all over the world wanting Greek names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander
http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Alexander
http://www.behindthename.com/name/alexander
http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.co ... ander.html
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Sergey » 29 Jan 2009, 16:33

Hellenicoz wrote:1. To be accepted in the Balkans you must have thousands years of history & FYROM are stealing Greece's history & name.


I don't think so. It is my personal opinion. Everybody knows about Greek history and about Alexander the Great.

Hellenicoz wrote:Very simple question once again is, why did they chose to change their name from Vardarska to Macedonia when Macedonia already existed in Northern Greece?


Pres. Tito is dead. So who knows why it happened? But most of inhabitants of FYROM were born as Macedonians. They call their language Macedonian. It is a reality. Stambul was for centuries predominantly Greek city, but would you demand that Greeks must be returned to the city and it must be named Constantinopol again. Unlikely. There are realities on the ground. Like you it or not.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 29 Jan 2009, 23:25

Sergey wrote:
Hellenicoz wrote:
Hellenicoz wrote:Very simple question once again is, why did they chose to change their name from Vardarska to Macedonia when Macedonia already existed in Northern Greece?


Pres. Tito is dead. So who knows why it happened? But most of inhabitants of FYROM were born as Macedonians. They call their language Macedonian. It is a reality. Stambul was for centuries predominantly Greek city, but would you demand that Greeks must be returned to the city and it must be named Constantinopol again. Unlikely. There are realities on the ground. Like you it or not.


Istambul will never be Constantinopol again & I accept that. This is different to any situation you have compared to.
Northern Greece has had this identity for thousands of years. FYROM has been named Vardar Banovina, Vardarska, Southern Slavs. They have been officially FYROM since the early 90's & before that they were Yugoslav.
Anyway, the Skopjia run countries official United Nations name is the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Constitutional name is within their own country. If they want to ever get EU or Nato membership, Greece & every EU or Nato member must vote for them. At the moment this wont happen in 1000 years. There are the realities. Like it or not.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Sergey » 30 Jan 2009, 13:25

Hellenicoz wrote:Istambul will never be Constantinopol again & I accept that. This is different to any situation you have compared to.
Northern Greece has had this identity for thousands of years. FYROM has been named Vardar Banovina, Vardarska, Southern Slavs. They have been officially FYROM since the early 90's & before that they were Yugoslav.


Of course I agree with it.

Hellenicoz wrote:Anyway, the Skopjia run countries official United Nations name is the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Constitutional name is within their own country. If they want to ever get EU or Nato membership, Greece & every EU or Nato member must vote for them.


Yes Greece has a right to bar FYROM to be accepted as EU or/and NATO member under the name Macedonia.

Hellenicoz wrote:At the moment this wont happen in 1000 years. There are the realities. Like it or not.


Never say never. 1000 years? I suspect that the EU and especially NATO would cease to exist much sooner.

Well, Hellenicoz, while I understand your reasons and determination pretty well, I repeat, personally I think that the problem is not so significant as you see it.

Thank you for interesting exanche of opinions.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Steven » 30 Jan 2009, 21:55

I wouldn't like that my state would be called "The Former .... Republic of ..." . My God, it sounds so boring, and, moreover, those countries which are usually called this way, they have historical problems. This name emphasizes the problem. A country should contain only one word. My opinion
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 31 Jan 2009, 16:06

Thank you Sergey. I enjoyed hearing the opinion on the matter from someone not attached to either Greece or FYROM. With your name & your brothers name I assumed you are from Russia. I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

Steven,
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is the official name given to the Skopjia governed country by the United Nations due to the Macedonia name already existing (Northern Province of Greece).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)

I agree with you on the one name. Tell that to the former Yugoslav leader Josip Broz Tito whom changed Yugoslavia's southern region from "Vardaska banovina" (or Southern Serbia) to "People's Socialist Republic of Macedonia" in 1945 when he knew Greece's Northern Province was already named "Macedonia". Thats why the United Nations recognises the country under the provisional UN name of The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) until an alternate name is agreed on by the Greece & FYROM
http://www.cc.ece.ntua.gr/~conster/Engl ... c_tito.htm

The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia does seem too boring & too long. The original name of Vardaska is not used.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Sergey » 02 Feb 2009, 09:30

Hellenicoz wrote:Thank you Sergey. I enjoyed hearing the opinion on the matter from someone not attached to either Greece or FYROM. With your name & your brothers name I assumed you are from Russia. I'm sorry if I'm wrong.


Yes, I'm a Russian (though I have Ukrainian and Polish ancestors as well). Indeed, my feelings are warm toward the Greeks and the Macedonians, they are equally warm. So I am watching this conflict around the name with dissatisfaction.

But who knows... Serbia and FYROM could form a confederation (Yugoslavia) where both parts would have the highest degree of autonomy (remain in fact independent states). The confederation could join the EU and NATO under name of Yugoslavia. I suppose Greece would not object. It could be a solution.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 04 Feb 2009, 06:00

Sergey,
As you probably already know, Greece also have a soft spot for both Serbia & Russia & if it wasnt for the name issue between the Athens & Skopjia governed countries, Greece & FYROM would of had a very strong relationship.

As long as the FYROM have Nikola Gruevski as prime minister, the two countries will go further apart.
http://modern-macedonian-history.blogsp ... evski.html

Part of Nikola Gruevski's ancestry stems from Achlada a village in the Meliti municipality of the Florina Prefecture, Greece, where his family had the surname Grouios. His paternal grandfather, Nikolaos Grouios fought as a soldier of the Hellenic Army during the Greco-Italian War. He was wounded in battle and died in a military hospital on 19 November 1940. His name is listed in the war memorial of Achlada alongside those of villagers killed in the Balkan Wars, the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922 and World War II.

Nikola Gruevski's family along with many members of the Greek People's Liberation Army fled to the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia during Greek Civil War. Among them was the widow of Grouios and three of their children. One of the children would grow to become Gruevski's father. His wife was a Slav Macedonian. Following their divorce, Gruevski was raised by his mother. The villagers of Achlada hold her responsible for Gruevski disregarding his paternal ancestry, which they consider to be Greek. On the other hand Gruevski is considered an "Aegean Macedonian" in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, an ethnic Slav Macedonian originating in Greek Macedonia.

Members of the Greek People's Liberation Army which fleg to the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia during Greek Civil War never returned to Greece because they are still wanted for war crimes. 28,000 children stolen by the Slav rebels after the 1948 civil war in Greece before we start making accusations about human rights. Very few of these children, many of whom are still in FYROM even today were returned to their parents even after huge UN and world pressure in the 1950's. This event in world history was & still is disgusting.

Gruevski seems to have a hatred towards Greece because of his past & will do anything to get revenge.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 14 Feb 2009, 02:59

The Region of Macedonia covers a area of 66,397 square kilometers over 3 countries.

Greece Macedonia (Northern Greece) covers 34,203 square kilometers.
Former Yugoslav Macedonia (FYROM) covers 25,713 square kilometers.
Bulgarian Macedonia (Blagoevgrad Province) covers 6,480 square kilometres.

The only solution is:

An official United Nations agreement signed by these three nations that only the whole region will be named MACEDONIA & No country, Nationality, Language etc will be offially named MACEDONIA or MACEDONIAN.

Greek Macedonia part given official UN name of: "AEGEAN MACEDONIA".
Former Yugoslav Macedonia part given official UN name of: "NORTH MACEDONIA".
Bulgarian Macedonia part given official UN name of: "BLAGOEVGRAD MACEDONIA".

NOW IS THIS A ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION?????????
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Steven » 15 Feb 2009, 22:38

Hellinicoz, this I believe this will solve the issue only for a short period of time. That's because you did not take into consideration people's opinion in this regard. The Greeks will want more that just being called Macedonians, since they are covering the mainland.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 16 Feb 2009, 23:17

Steven wrote:Hellinicoz, this I believe this will solve the issue only for a short period of time. That's because you did not take into consideration people's opinion in this regard. The Greeks will want more that just being called Macedonians, since they are covering the mainland.


You will find the majority of Greek citizens accepting such a solution.

What Greece will not accept, is the Skopjia governed country wanting the sole use of the "Macedonia" name for its country name, nationality, language, religion etc.

Greece have compromised in the mid 90's when they allowed the name Macedonia to be only part of the countries name & not just "Republic of Macedonia" so it can be accepted by the United Nations. Its FYROM whom wont compromise by wanting to have the "Macedonia" name for themselves.

Their government has brainwashed them for years & they will not accept being "Slavic Macedonian", "New Macedonian", "North Macedonian" etc.

Their attitude is stuff Greece & Bulgaria, we are the one & only Macedonians.

People whom know their history see it as laughable & it makes the FYROM people look stupid & uneducated.

The two countries should be friends, helping each other but as I wrote earlier, with a man whom has a personal issue with Greece is leader of FYROM this will not happen & the people of FYROM will suffer.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 06 Mar 2009, 08:07

Incident against Greek Tourists in FYROM

Unidentified individuals attacked three tourist coaches carrying Greek tourists at Ochris, Skopje on Sunday evening. Foreign Ministry spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos denounced the attack strongly, asking from FYROM's (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) authorities to protect the Greek citizens, who visit FYROM.

Full Story
http://news.ert.gr/en/greece/politics/1 ... n-pgdm.htm
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 06 Mar 2009, 08:25

There have been certain fallacies circulating for the past few years due to ignorance on the “Macedonian Issue”. It is exacerbated by systematic propaganda emanating from AVNOJ, or communist Yugoslavia and present-day FYROM, and their intransigent ultra-nationalist Diaspora.


Fallacy #1
The inhabitants of The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (The FYROM) are ethnic Macedonians, direct descendants of, or related to the ancient Macedonians.




Fact #1
The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians. They have nothing in common with the ancient Macedonians. Here are some testimonies from The FYROM’s officials:

a. The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).

b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).

c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.”

d. On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."

e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.”


Fallacy #2

The Macedonian Greeks are of the same ethnic group as the “Macedonians” of The FYROM.




Fact #2
The Macedonian Greeks are NOT of the same ethnic group as the Macedonian Slavs of The FYROM. The Macedonian Greeks are just that, Greeks who live in or originate from the geographic area of Macedonia.
They are the only people, that by inheritance, can be called Macedonians.



Fallacy #3

Ancient Macedonians were a tribe similar to the Greeks, but not Greek themselves.




Fact #3
Ancient Macedonians were one of more than the 230 Hellenic tribes, sub-tribes, and families of the Hellenic Nation that spoke more than 200 dialects. For more information see Herodotus, Thucydides, Titus Livius, Strabo, Nevi'im, Ketuvim, Apocrypha (Macabees I, 1-2). It was not until 1945 that their Hellenism has been challenged by the Slavs for expansionistic reasons.



Fallacy #4

Ancient Greece was a country, a legal entity, as we understand it today.




Fact #4
No. Hellas (Greece) was first recognized as a nation state or legal entity as we understand it today in 1830.
From the beginning until that time, the term Hellas was only a geographic term or an administrative area whose borders were changing depending on the needs of the Roman, Byzantine, or Ottoman Empires.



Fallacy #5

There was one ancient Greek language and the ancient Macedonians spoke Macedonian, not Greek.




Fact #5
Linguistically, there is no real distinction between a dialect and a language without a specific factor. People usually consider the political factor to determine whether a certain kind of speech is a language or a dialect. Since the Pan-Hellenic area consisted of many small city- states (Attica, Lacedaemon, Corinth, etc.), and larger states (Molossia, Thesprotia, Macedonia, Acarnania, Aetolia, etc.), it was common knowledge at the time that the people of all those states were speaking different languages, when in fact they were all variations of the same language, Hellenic or Greek.
The most advanced of all Hellenic dialects was the dialect of Attica (Athens) or Attic.
When people state “ancient Greek language” they mean the Attic dialect and any comparison of the Macedonian dialect to ancient Greek is actually a comparison to the Attic dialect. The difference between Macedonian and Attic was like the difference between Low and High German. Nobody doubts that both are Germanic languages, although they differ from one another. Another good example of a multi-dialectal linguistic regime is present-day Italy.
The official language of Italy is the Florentine, but common people still speak their own dialects. Two people from different areas of Italy cannot communicate if both speak their respective dialect, and yet they both speak Italian. Why should the Hellenic language be treated differently?

At that time, Greeks spoke more than 200 Hellenic dialects or languages, as the ancient Greeks used to call them.
Some of the well-known dialects were Ionic, Attic, Doric, Aeolic, Cypriot, Arcadic, Aetolic, Acarnanic, Macedonian and Locric. Moreover, we know that the Romans considered the Macedonians as Hellenic speaking peoples.
Livy wrote, "…The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time …" (Livy, History of Rome, b. XXXI par. XXIX). The Aetolians and Acarnanians were definitely Hellenic tribes. On another occasion Livy writes "…[General Paulus] took his official seat surrounded by the whole crowd of Macedonians … his announcement was translated into Greek and repeated by Gnaeus Octavius the praetor…”. If the crowd of Macedonians were not Greek speaking, why then did the Romans need to translate Paulus' speech into Greek? (Livy, History of Rome, b. XLV, para XXIX).

The Macedonian dialect was an Aeolic dialect of the Western Greek language group (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 193). All those dialects differ from each other, but never in a way that one person could not understand the other. The Military Yugoslavian Encyclopedia of the 1974 edition (Letter M, page 219), a very anti-Hellenic biased publication, states, “… u doba rimske invazije, njihov jezik bio grčki, ali se dva veka ranije dosta razlikovao od njega, mada ne toliko da se ta dva naroda nisu mogla sporazumevati.” (… at the time of the Roman invasion their language was Hellenic, but two centuries before it was different enough, but not as much as the two peoples could not understand one another).

After the death of Alexander the Great, the situation changed in the vast empire into a new reality. Ptolemy II, Philadelphos (308-246 BC) the Pharaoh (king) of Egypt realized that the physical unification of the Greeks and the almost limitless expansion of the Empire required the standardization of the already widely used common language or Koinē. Greek was already the lingua franca of the vast Hellenistic world in all four kingdoms of the Diadochi (Alexander's Successors). It was already spoken, but neither an official alphabet nor grammar had yet been devised.

Alexandria, Egypt was already the Cultural Center of the Empire in about 280 BC. Ptolemy II assigned Aristeas, an Athenian scholar, to create the grammar of the new language, one that not only all Greeks, but all inhabitants of the Empire would be able to speak. Thus, Aristeas used the Attic dialect as basis for the new language.
Aristeas and the scholars who were assisting him trimmed the language a little, eliminated the Attic idiosyncrasies and added words as well as grammatical and syntactical rules mainly from the Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic dialects.
The Spartan Doric, however, was excluded from it (see Tsakonian further down). So, they standardized THE Hellenic language, called Koine or Common.

The language was far from perfect. Non-Greeks encountered difficulties reading it since there was no way to separate words, sentences and paragraphs. In addition, they were unable to express their feelings and the right intonation. During that time, Greek was a melodic language, even more melodic than Italian is today.

The system of paragraphs, sentences, and some symbols like ~. ;`'! , were the result of continuous improvement and enhancement of the language with the contribution of many Greek scholars from all over the World.

There were a few alphabets employed by various Hellenic cities or states, and these alphabets included letters specific to the sounds of their particular dialect. There were two main categories, the Eastern and the Western alphabets. The first official alphabet omitted all letters not in use any longer ( sampi, qoppa, digamma also known as stigma in Greek numbering) and it presented a 24-letter alphabet for the new Koinē language. However, the inclusion and use of small letters took place over a period of many centuries after the standardization of Koinē.

After the new language was completed with its symbols, the Jews of Egypt felt that it was an opportunity for them to translate their sacred books into Greek since it was the language that the Jews of Diaspora spoke.
So on the island of Pharos, by Alexandria's seaport, 72 Jewish rabbis were secluded and isolated as they translated their sacred books (Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim, etc.) from Aramaic and Hebrew to the Koinē Greek, the newly created language. This is known as the Septuagint translation. The Koinē evolved and in about two to three centuries it became the language that Biblical scholars call Biblical Greek. In fact, only those who have studied the Attic dialect can understand the difference between the Septuagint Greek and the Greek of the New Testament.

Although the Koinē was officially in use, common folk in general continued to speak their own dialect and here and there one can sense the insertion of elements of the Attic dialect in various documents such as the New Testament. The Gospel according to St. John and the Revelation are written in perfect Attic.
The other three Synoptic Gospels were written in Koinē with the insertion of some Semitic grammatical concepts (i.e. the Hebrew genitive) and invented words (i.e. epiousios).

The outcome is that today in Greece there are many variations in speech; of course not to the point of people not understanding each other, but still there is divergence in the Greek spoken tongue. Today the Hellenic language accepts only one dialect, the Tsakonian, which is a direct development of the ancient Doric dialect of Sparta.
The Demotic is a development of mostly the Doric sound system, whereas the Katharevousa is a made-up language based on the Classical Attic. Presently, the speech in various areas of Greece somehow differs from each other and sometimes an untrained ear might have difficulty understanding the local speech. Pontic and Cypriot Greek are very good examples to the unacquainted ear. Tsakonian dialect, the descendant of the Spartan Doric, is almost impossible to understand if one is not familiar with it.

Over the years, Macedonia had several names. At first the Macedonians gave the land the name, Emathia, after their leader Emathion. It derives from the word amathos, amathoeis meaning sand or sandy.
From now on, all of its names are Greek. Later it was called Maketia or Makessa and finally Makedonia (Macedonia). The latter names are derived from the Doric/Aeolic word “makos,” (in Attic “mēkos) meaning length (see Homer, Odyssey, VII, 106), thus Makednos means long or tall, but also a highlander or mountaineer. (cf. Orestae, Hellenes).

In Opis, during the mutiny of the Macedonian Army, Alexander the Great spoke to the whole Macedonian Army addressing them in Greek (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII, 9,10). The Macedonian soldiers listened to him and they were dumbfounded by what they heard from their Commander-in-Chief. They were upset. Immediately after Alexander left for the Palace, they demanded that Alexander allow them to enter the palace so that they could talk to him.

When this was reported to Alexander, he quickly came out and saw their restrained disposition; he heard the majority of his soldiers crying and lamenting, and was moved to tears. He came forward to speak, but they remained there imploring him. One of them, named Callines, whose age and command of the Companion cavalry made him preeminent spoke as follows: “Sire, what grieves the Macedonians is that you have already made some Persians your ‘kinsmen’, and the Persians are called ‘kinsmen’ of Alexander and are allowed to kiss you, while not one of the Macedonians has been granted this honor” (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII, 8-11).


The previous story clearly reveals that the Macedonians were speaking Greek since they could understand their leader. There were thousands of them, not just some selected few who happened to speak Greek. It would be unrealistic for Alexander the Great to speak to them in a language they supposedly did not speak. It would be impossible to believe that the Macedonian soldiers were emotionally moved to the point that all of them were lamenting after listening to a language they did not understand. There is no way for the Macedonians to have taken a crash course in Greek in 20 minutes so that they would be able to understand the speech simultaneously as Alexander was delivering it.

Furthermore, the Macedonians wore a distinctive hat, the “kausia” (καυσία) (Polybius IV 4,5; Eustathius 1398; Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII 22; cf. Sturz, Macedonian Dialect, 41) from the Greek word for heat that separated them from the rest of the Greeks. That is why the Persians called them “yauna takabara,” which meant “Greeks wearing the hat”. The Macedonian hat was very distinctive from the hats of the other Greeks, but the Persians did not distinguished the Macedonians, because the Macedonian speech was also Greek (Hammond, The Macedonian State p. 13 cf. J.M. Balcer, Historia, 37 [1988] 7).


On the mountainsides of the Himalayas and the Indian Caucasus and under Pakistani and Afghanistan jurisdiction lives a tribe whose people call themselves Kalash. They claim to be the descendants of Alexander the Great’s soldiers who for various reasons were left behind in the depths of Asia and could not follow the Great General in his new conquests. Having no contact with the outside world for almost 23 centuries, they are quite different from any other neighboring nations.
Light complexioned, and blue eyed in the midst of dark skinned neighbors, their language, even though it has been affected and influenced by the many Muslim languages of nations that surround the Kalash tribe, still incorporates vocabulary and has many elements of the ancient Greek language. They greet their visitors with "ispanta" from the Greek verb "ασπάζομαι" (greetings) and they warn them about "heman" from the ancient Greek noun "χειμών" (winter). These indigenous people still believe in the twelve Olympian gods and their architecture resembles very much the Macedonian architecture (National Herald, “A School in the Tribe of Kalash by Greeks", October 11, 1996).
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 06 Mar 2009, 08:26

Michael Wood, the British scholar in his In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great (p.8), quotes the following statement made by a Kalash named Kazi Khushnawaz:

Long long ago, before the days of Islam, Sikander e Aazem came to India. The Two Horned one whom you British people call Alexander the Great. (sic) He conquered the world, and was a very great man, brave and dauntless and generous to his followers. When he left to go back to Greece, some of his men did not wish to go back with him but preferred to stay here. Their leader was a general called Shalakash [Seleucus]. With some of his officers and men, he came to these valleys and they settled here and took local women, and here they stayed. We, the Kalash, the Black Kafir of the Hindu Kush, are the descendants of their children. Still some of our words are the same as theirs, our music and our dances, too; we worship the same gods. This is why we believe the Greeks are our first ancestors...

(Seleucus was one of the Generals of Alexander the Great. He was born in 358 or 354 BC in the town of Europos, Macedonia and died in August/September 281 BC near Lysimathia, Thrace.)

The Kalash today worship the ancient Greek gods and especially Di Zau [Dias Zeus], the great sky god.
Unfortunately, their language died out only in Muslim times. This is further evidence that Macedonians and Greeks spoke the same language, had the same religion and the same customs.

Accusations of Macedonians being barbarians started in Athens and they were the result of political fabrications based on the Macedonian way of life and not on their ethnicity or language. (Casson, Macedonia, Thrace and Illyria, p158, Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 4). Demosthenes traveled to Macedonia twice for a total of nine months. He knew very well what language the Macedonians were speaking. We encountered similar behavior with Thrasyboulos. He states that the Acarnanians were barbarians only when the Athenians encountered a conflict of political interest from the Acarnanians. The Macedonian way of life differed in many ways from the southern Greek way of life, but that was very common among the Western Greeks such as Chaones, Molossians, Thesprotians, Acarnanians, Aetolians and Macedonians (Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 4.) Macedonian state institutions were similar to those of the Mycenean and Spartan (Wilcken, Alexander the Great, p 23). Regarding Demosthenes addressing Philip as “barbarian” even Badian an opponent of the Greekness of Macedonians states “It may have nothing to do with historical fact, any more than the orators' tirades against their personal enemies usually have.”
(E. Badian, Studies in the History of Art Vol 10: Macedonia And Greece in Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times, Greeks and Macedonians).


Fallacy #6
Ancient Macedonia was a nation state.




Fact #6
Before Phillip II, Macedonia was divided into small typical city-states having adopted the same concept of internal civic structure as the southern Greek city-states. Each Macedonian city-state or area had its own main city and government. Philip II united the Macedonian city-states by instituting and establishing a Homeric style of a Kingdom, maintaining the infrastructure of the smaller city-states with the various kings paying tribute to the king of all Macedonia. We know this from the fact that at one time the king of Lyncestis (present day Bitola - Florina) was Alexander. The point that has to be made clear is that a man’s first loyalty was to his city, not to the King of Macedonia (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 9).




Fallacy #7
Over the years the ancient Macedonians disappeared.




Fact #7
The ancient Macedonians, under the influence of the new common language, the Koine, as developed over the years, were amalgamated with the rest of the Hellenes, or Greeks.



Fallacy #8

If the ancient Macedonians were Greeks, why then was Alexander I, the king of Macedonia, named Philhellene (lover of Greece)? This title is bestowed only to foreigners.




Fact #8
The king of Macedonia, Alexander I, was named Philhellene by the Theban poet Pindaros for the same reason Jason of Pherrai and Euagoras of Cyprus were called Philhellenes (Isocrates 107A, 199A).
The title Philhellene in ancient times meant Philopatris (lover of the homeland) or simply put “a patriot” (Plato, Politics, 470E; Xenophon, Agesilaus, 7, 4), which is why Alexander the Great did not touch the traditional house of Pindaros when he ordered his soldiers to burn Thebes.



Fallacy #9

The ancient Greeks had a Greek or Hellenic national conscience and the Macedonians, by destroying Greek cities, proved that they were not Greeks.




Fact #9
Greece is an area which lacking geographic continuity fostered alienation of individual tribes not only in the general sense, but also in a narrower sense. That explains why the ancient Greeks did not have a common national conscience which is why they were warring against each other. The Macedonians destroyed or burned cities belonging to other Greek City States for the same reason the Athenians, the Thebans, and the Spartans battled one another.

They knew that somehow they were related, but local conscience was much stronger than a Pan- Hellenic one. Ancient Greeks, of the Hellenic mainland, were united before an enemy attack that could endanger the common freedom and welfare. This fact was displayed anytime the Persians attacked the Hellenic lands.
Greeks from Ionia and Aeolia (present day Aegean shores of Turkey), however, were mostly Persian allies in opposition to the Mainland Greeks.

It was common practice for various Hellenic states to form political/military alliances with each other and against each other, but they did not develop ethnic partnerships. There are plenty of such alliances in the ancient Hellenic world.

A few centuries went by until the Greeks began developing a national conscience. The Greeks definitely achieved the completion of a national conscience by the time Justinian was crowned the Emperor of Byzantium.
Very few ancient Greeks, such as Pericles, Demosthenes and Phillip II of Macedonia had the vision of a united country, but each one wanted to see his own state as the leading force of such a union. Pericles dreamed of it, Demosthenes advocated it, but Phillip II materialized it. Also, the Macedonians had common religious practices and customs as the Spartans.



Fallacy #10

The ancient Macedonians were one of the Illyrian tribes.




Fact #10
Although there is a lot of evidence (mostly indirect) regarding the language of the ancient Macedonians, there is one piece of evidence offered by Polybius in book XXVIII, paragraphs 8 and 9, where it states that the Macedonians were using translators when they were communicating with the Illyrians. This means the Macedonians and the Illyrians did not speak the same language. For instance, Perseus, the Macedonian
king, sent Adaeus of Berroia (who spoke only Greek) and Pleuratus the Illyrian, as a translator (because he spoke the Illyrian language) on a mission to the Illyrian king Genthius (169 BC). Pleuratus was an exile living in Perseus' court. Moreover there is evidence that the Illyrians and the Macedonians were vicious enemies.



Fallacy #11

Many of the Greeks living in Greek Macedonia are actually refugees that came to Macedonia during the First World War and especially during the 1920's and 1930' from Turkey, the Middle East, Georgia, Russia, Ukraine and Bulgaria.




Fact #11
It is very true that a good number of the Greeks living in Greek Macedonia are refugees from various Middle Eastern countries. However, it is also true that these Greeks are descendants of those ancient Greeks, including ancient Macedonians, who either colonized various areas of what presently are Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Bulgaria, Turkey, the Middle East, or followed the greatest General of all times, Alexander the Great. These Greeks simply came home after at least two and one half millennia of spreading the Greek spirit, culture, language and civilization. Mother Greece made her lands available to her returning and thought to be lost offspring. It was the least she could do. After all they had every right to come home, just as the Jews did and they are still going home to Israel.



Fallacy #12

Sts. Cyril and Methodius were Slavs and that is the rationale why they are called
“the Apostles of the Slavs” and also “the Slav Apostles.”




Fact#12
The term “Slav Apostles” or the “Apostles of the Slavs” does not mean that the two brothers were Slavs.
St. Thomas is called “the Indian Apostle,” but we all know that he was not an Indian. He simply taught Christianity to the Indians. The Greek brothers from Thessaloniki taught Christianity to the Slavs, they gave them the alphabet (presently called Cyrillic), and they translated the sacred and liturgical books of Christianity into the Old Church Slavonic, otherwise known as Old Bulgarian.

Pope John Paul II in his Encyclical Epistles of December 31, 1980, and June 2, 1985, while he was commemorating the two brothers, affirmed the fact that both were Greeks from Thessaloniki.

Professors Ivan Lazaroff, Plamen Pavloff, Ivan Tyutyundzijeff and Milko Palangurski of the Faculty of History of Sts. Cyril and Methodius University in Veliko Tŭrnovo, Bulgaria in their book, Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod (Short History of the Bulgarian Nation, pp 36-38), state very explicitly that the two brothers were Greeks from Thessaloniki. The late Oscar Halecki, Professor of Eastern European History, in his book Borderlands of Western Civilization, A History of East Central Europe (chapter Moravian State and the Apostles of the Slavs) agrees with the authors of Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod.



Fallacy #13

The present day Emblem of the FYROM is the lion. This lion is the same lion that Alexander the Great is depicted wearing above his head imprinted on some old coins.




Fact #13
There is nothing in common between The FYROM’s lion and the lion's skin that Alexander the Great wears in some coins. The FYROM’s lion is actually the Bulgarian lion, which is depicted in the Bulgarian Coat of Arms.

Alexander’s lion is the lion's skin that Heracles killed in Nemea, which is one of the 12 deeds executed by the mythological hero. The lion skin that Alexander the Great wears signifies his ancestral relationship to Heracles (Hercules). There is an unpublished inscription from Xanthos dating from the third century BC (cf. Robert, Amyzon, 1,162, n 31) where the Ptolemies refer to their Ancestors as “Herakleidas Argeadas”
(Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 265, n 6).



Fallacy #14

In other coins we see Alexander the Great having two horns on his head and this signifies that he was a very bad man.




Fact #14
In the Middle Eastern tradition a horned man meant that he was powerful. Darius in his letters to Alexander the Great called him, Zul-Al-Kurnain or Double Horned one. Thus the horns on Alexander’s head means that he was recognized as most powerful.



Fallacy #15

After the battle of Granicus, Alexander sent the Athenians 300 full suits of Persian armor as a present, with the following inscription: "Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, except the Lacedaemonians, dedicate these spoils, taken from the Persian who dwell in Asia.” J.R. Hamilton in a note on this event states, “In view of the small part, which the Greeks had played in the battle the inscription [with the omission of any mention of the Macedonians] must be regarded as propaganda designed for his Greek allies. Alexander does not fail to stress the absence of the Spartans.”




Fact #15
J.R. Hamilton’s assumption is unconvincing. Alexander the Great had no reason to please anyone because the troops from South Greece were only 9,400, and as he admits, they only played a small part in the battle. Being the master of the expeditionary force and ignoring his Macedonians while exalting the “foreign Greeks”,
Alexander would have faced the same angry Macedonians that he was confronted with in Opis when he appointed foreigners (Persians and Medes) to high ranks and offices in his Army and administration. However, none of the Macedonians complained about the inscription after the battle of Granicus because they considered themselves included in it.

The fact is that Alexander the Great considered himself and his Macedonians, Greek. He claimed ancestry on his mother’s side from Achilles and on his father’s side from Hercules (Heracles). His ancestor, Alexander I, stated that he was Greek (Herodotus, Histories, V, 20, 22; VIII, 137; IX, 45).
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 06 Mar 2009, 08:28

The Macedonians themselves were Greek speaking peoples
(see: Papazoglu, Makedonski Gradovi, p 333 and Central Balkan Tribes, p 135; Casson, Macedonia, Thrace and Illyria, pp157-162; NGL Hammond, The Macedonian State, pp 12-15 and 193; Cavaignac, Histoire de l’ antiquité, i, p 67; Hoffman, Die Makedonen, p. 259; Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 3; Yugoslavian Military Encyclopedia 1974 “Antička Makedonija”; Hogarth, Philip and Alexander, p.5, n 4),
Urlich Wilcken, Alexander the Great, II pp 23 and 24, Botsford, Hellenic History, p 237).

Some of the scholars mentioned above initially were not sure about the Greekness of the Macedonians (i.e. NGL Hammod). Newly discovered artifacts and monuments that were excavated indicating the Macedonians were actually Greek made them admit their previous error. NGL Hammond explains the reason why scholars like Badian do not consider the Macedonians Greeks in his book, The Macedonian State (page 13, note 29). Hammond states that most recently E. Badian in Barr-Sharrar (pp 33-51) disregarded the evidence as explained in A History of Macedonia (NGL Hammond and G. T. Griffith, 1979 pp 39-54). In Barr-Sharrar, Badian holds the view that the Macedonians (whom he does not define) spoke a language other than Greek. Badian keeps ignoring evidence that is against his beliefs and convictions choosing only certain proof and ignoring other relevant proof.
That is exactly the pattern others, like E. Borza, P. Green, etc. have chosen to follow.

All names, whether members of the royal family or not, including names of other simple Macedonian citizens, i.e. Kallinis (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII par 11), Limnos from Chalastra (Plutarch, Parallel Lives of Famous Greeks and Romans, chap. Alexander) and all toponymies in the area of the Macedonian homeland were Greek. The Macedonian homeland included the city-states of Imathia, Pieria, Bottiea, Mygdonia, Crestonia, Bisaltia, Sintiki, Odomantis, Edonis, Elimea, Orestis, Eordea, Almopia, Lyncestis, Pelagonia and Macedonian Paeonia. Macedonian Paeonia is the part of Paeonia which lies south of the narrow pass at the area of Demir Kapija (The FYROM).

Fanula Papazoglu indirectly agrees with the concept of the above borderlines stating, “… it is often forgotten that ancient Macedonia occupied only a relatively small part of the Yugoslav Macedonia” (Papazoglu, Central Balkan Tribes, p. 268). Papazoglu’s two maps at the end of her doctoral dissertation (Makedonski gradovi u rimsko doba, Skoplje, 1957) portray only Macedonian territories under Roman rule.

Macedonia conquered the already Hellenized Paeonia in 217 BC under King Philip V, 106 years after the death of Alexander the Great. Any map that incorporates Paeonia into Macedonia before that year is absolutely false.

All inscriptions and artifacts excavated, including those in Trebenište and Oleveni near Bitola, are in pure Greek.
With a few exceptions, the only time one sees non-Greek names and toponymies is in areas that constituted the expansion of Macedonia, i.e. Paeonia, Thrace, etc. Any non-Greek names, words or toponymies found in the Macedonian homeland are remnant of Thracians, Phrygians or Paeonians that used to live there before their expulsion by the Macedonians.

Participation in the Olympic Games was unequivocally and definitely a function that only athletes of strictly Hellenic origin could partake. Archelaus had won in the Olympic and Pythian Games (Solinus 9, 16) and Alexander I had also won in the Olympic Games (Herodotus, Histories, V, 22).

It is stated by Herodotus (Histories VIII, 43) that a number of Peloponnesian cities inhabited by Lacedaemonians, Corinthians, Sicyonians, Epidaurians, Troezinians, and Hermionians and that with the exception of Hermionians all others were of Dorian and Macedonian blood. The above people were living in cities located in Peloponnesus, which makes the Macedonians as Greek as the Dorians.

The answer as to why Alexander sent the 300 full suits of Persian armor to goddess Athena, goes back to the battle of Thermopylae and all events that followed. But in order for one to understand it better, one has to know the story of the battle of Thermopylae.

The Persian Army and Navy, headed by Xerxes, won the battle against the 1300 Greeks (1000 from Phocis) lead by the 300 Spartans whose commander was Leonidas. It is important for one to note that the Persians were victorious only when a local Greek, Ephialtes, betrayed a secret passage to the enemy who came from behind and thus surrounded the few Greeks. It is also important to know that according to Lycourgos' laws, Spartans were not allowed to leave the battlefield for any reason, nor they were allowed to follow anyone in the battle. That’s why the Spartans did not follow Alexander against the Persians.

Herodotus (Histories b. VIII, 114) tells us:

… the Spartans upon the urging of the Oracle of Delphi sent a messenger to Xerxes demanding reparations for the death of Leonidas. The man who obtained an interview with Xerxes said to him: ‘My lord, King of the Medes, the Lacedaemonians and the house of Heracles in Sparta demand satisfaction for blood, because you killed their king while he was fighting in defense of Greece.’
Xerxes laughed, and for a time did not answer…

The royal house of Sparta (Herodotus VII, 204), and the royal house of Macedonia (cf. Fact #13) both claimed descent from Heracles (Hercules).

Taking into consideration all of the above, we come to the conclusion that Alexander the Great, being victorious at the battle of Granicus, sent 300 full armor uniforms to goddess Athena who was also the goddess of war, and in this way he AVENGED the 300 Spartans who died defending Greece.



Conclusion:

An abundance of information regarding the ancient Greek past comes to us from the Greek Mythology. Unfortunately, Mythology cannot be a dependable source since it cannot furnish trustworthy information which would help us reconstruct the Hellenic past. However, it does not mean it is completely useless either. It elucidates through symbolism truths leading us to the right path while searching for historical facts through written or unwritten monuments. Such monuments are the only ones accepted by historians in their attempt to unlock hidden elements that hold the key to the reconstruction of the past of all Hellenic group of nations.

Countries are products of historical events, which is why they are born and die. Nations do not. Nations are entities that take a very arduous time to evolve. The same thing is true for their appellation. Nations cannot be given birth and receive names whenever politicians wish by legislation, as it is the case of the FYROM.

The present-day Hellenic nation is the result of social, civic and linguistic amalgamation of more than 230 tribes speaking more than 200 dialects that claimed descent from Hellen, son of Deukalion. The Hellenic nation is blessed to espouse in its lengthy life great personalities such as politicians, educators, soldiers, philosophers and authors. They have all contributed in their own way to the molding of their nation. They are the result of natural maturity and a consequence of historical, social, civic, linguistic and political developments that have taken place in the last 4,000 years.

“When we take into account the political conditions, religion and morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a Greek race and akin to the Dorians. Having stayed behind in the extreme north, they were unable to participate in the progressive civilization of the tribes which went further south...” (Wilcken,
Alexander the Great, p 22). Most historians have assessed the Macedonian state of affairs in a similar fashion. The Macedonians were a Hellenic group of tribes belonging to the Western Greek ethnic group.

The Macedonians incorporated the territory of the native people into Macedonia and forced the Pieres, a Thracian tribe, out of the area to Mt. Pangaeum and the Bottiaiei from Bottiaia. They further expelled the Eordi from Eordaia and the Almopes from Almopia and they similarly expelled all tribes (Thracian, Paeonian, Illyrian) they found in areas of Anthemus, Crestonia, Bysaltia and other lands. The Macedonians absorbed the few inhabitants of the above tribes that stayed behind. They established their suzerainty over the land of Macedonia without losing their ethnicity, language, or religion (Thucydides, II, 99). They also incorporated the lands of the Elimeiotae, Orestae, Lyncestae, Pelagones, and Deriopes all tribes living in Upper Macedonia who were Greek speakers, but of a different (Molossian) dialect from that spoken by the Macedonians (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 390). Then, living with savage northern neighbors such as Illyrians, Thracians, Paeonians and later Dardanians, the Macedonians physically deflected their neighbors’ hordes forming an impenetrable fence denying them the opportunity to attack the Greek city-states of the south, which is why they are considered the bastion of Hellenism.

N. G. L. Hammond states:

What language did these `Macedones' speak? The name itself is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means `highlanders', and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such as `Orestai' and `Oreitai', mean­ing 'mountain-men'. A reputedly earlier variant, `Maketai', has the same root, which means `high', as in the Greek adjective makednos or the noun mekos. The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod recorded […] has a bearing on the question of Greek speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes; as we know from inscrip­tions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect. Secondly, Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins of Hellen's three sons - Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus-who were the found­ers of three dialects of Greek speech, namely Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recorded this relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh century, that the Macedones were a Greek­ speaking people.
The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples of their province in Europe, and one of them was the `yauna takabara', which meant `Greeks wearing the hat'. There were Greeks in Greek city-states here and there in the province, but they were of various origins and not distinguished by a common hat. However, the Macedonians wore a dis­tinctive hat, the kausia. We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and modi­fied Hesiod's genealogy by making Macedon not a cousin, but a son of Aeolus, thus bringing Macedon and his descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking family. Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus had no motive for making a false statement about the language of the Macedonians, who were then an obscure and not a powerful people.
Their independent testimonies should be accepted as conclusive (N.G.L. Hammond, The Macedonian State, p.12-13).


The evidence above shows that the ancient Macedonians were one of the Hellenic groups of tribes speaking a Greek dialect and having the same institutions as the Spartans and especially the Greeks of the Western group of nations. Thus, the fallacies emanated from the FYROM and its diaspora are strongly repudiated.

Marcus A. Templar

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33 Θουκιδίδης, Ιστορία του Πελοπονησιακού Πολέμου, Γ. Ε. Σ., Δ/νσις Στρατιωτικών Εκδόσεων, 1971

34 Vasiliev, А. А., History of the Byzantine Empire, The University of Wisconsin Press, 1980

35 Wilcken, U., Alexander the Great, New York, 1967

36 Warren, P., The Aegean Civilizations, New York, 1989

37 Wood, M., In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great, 1997
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Benn » 06 Mar 2009, 10:13

Hellenicoz wrote:Incident against Greek Tourists in FYROM

Unidentified individuals attacked three tourist coaches carrying Greek tourists at Ochris, Skopje on Sunday evening. Foreign Ministry spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos denounced the attack strongly, asking from FYROM's (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) authorities to protect the Greek citizens, who visit FYROM.

Full Story
http://news.ert.gr/en/greece/politics/1 ... n-pgdm.htm


that's terrible. I can't imagine this happening in a democratic country. Where was the police anyway? By the way, the article doesn't states whether they were arrested or not. There were 30 culprits so some of them must have been caught.
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 11 Mar 2009, 05:11

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) Election Campaign Gains Momentum
Skopje | 10 March 2009 |


As political campaigning ahead of The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia's March 22 presidential and municipal elections gains momentum, candidates focus on the ongoing name row with Greece and the state of the economy.


Seven candidates are running for president, while over 380 candidates are vying for 83 municipal seats.

The candidates fielded by the ruling conservative VMRO DPMNE party and the main opposition Social Democrat party - seen as front runners - have opposing views on both of these issues.



The opposition presidential candidate Ljubomir Frckoski accuses VMRO and his counterpart of not putting in enough effort to solve the row with Greece, which would open the way for immediate NATO accession and help pave the country's path towards the EU, thus automatically boosting the economy. Frckoski says he would wage a more pragmatic policy.

“This is the worst Former Yugoslav Macedonian political nomenclature since its independence,” Frckoski says, arguing that the government's current policy will only lead the country to isolation, is bad for investment and bad for the economy.



His counterpart Geogi Ivanov says the economy is doing well and the country is staying firmly on its Euro-Atlantic course. During a recent TV debate between the candidates, Ivanov - who is seen as more of a hardliner on the name issue - argued that the country is not isolated.


“Macedonia is strong when it is open to all,” he said, pledging to continue to strengthen ties with both Macedonia’s neighbors and with the world.


Greece vetoed The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia's (FYROM) entry into NATO last April, and insists that the name Macedonia implies Skopje’s territorial claims over its own northern province called by the same name. Skopje says it favours a compromise, but one that would not put in question the identity of the Macedonians.

Other candidates are Imer Selmani from the newly formed New Democracy party, the former police minister who was last year acquitted for war crimes in the Hague, Ljube Boskoski, running as an independent, the candidate of the opposition Liberal Democrats, Nano Ruzin, Mirushe Hoxha from the main Albanian opposition, the Democratic Party of Albanians DPA, as well as VMRO’s coalition partner, the Democratic Union for Integration's, DUI, candidate Agron Buxhaku.


Opinion polls show that Imer Selmani is in roughly third place and may have a chance of becoming the first ever ethnic Albanian president that enters the second decisive round of voting - scheduled for April 5 - if he wins enough support from the majority Macedonian voters.


These candidates are all also urging a compromise with Greece on the name issue as soon as possible.


As for the local elections, the main contest is for the capital Skopje's mayor. Eleven candidates have entered the race but here again the candidates fielded by the two principal parties are seen as having the biggest chance of winning.


These elections will be closely monitored by the EU and are seen as test for the country’s democratic credibility after last year’s June general poll was partly marred with violence and fraud. If they go well, the country will earn a tick in the box towards EU accession and could also hope for the lifting of the visa requirements for travel to the EU.



Reporting by Sinisa -Jakov Marusic
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby M.Helen » 11 Mar 2009, 21:53

Hellinicoz, and whom are you supporting? Do you want it changes its policy or you want it to remain as it used to be till now?
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Re: Macedonia Name Issue

Postby Hellenicoz » 13 Mar 2009, 06:20

M.Helen wrote:Hellinicoz, and whom are you supporting? Do you want it changes its policy or you want it to remain as it used to be till now?


If you want progress or a solution on the "Macedonia Name Issue" you would support the opposition presidential candidate Ljubomir Frckoski. The current government of the FYROM is not putting any effort to solve the row with Greece, which would open the way for immediate NATO accession and help pave the country's path towards the EU, thus automatically boosting the economy.

The current government's policy will only lead the country to isolation, is bad for investment and bad for the economy.


Anyway I think the whole "Macedonia Name Issue" is so stupid its funny. I mean didnt the Skopjia governed country know "Macedonia" is Greece's largest province on the north of the country? Its not that this province just popped up overnight. Its been there for thousands of years from when Greece was made up of different Kingdoms.
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