If Alexander and the Macedonians were not Greek and they are somehow "related" to the Northern neighbors (FYROM), these people ought to be very proud of their ancestors, of what they did and how they viewed their world.
Therefore, I propose that the "descendants" of these ancient Macedonians ought to follow in the footsteps of their forefathers:
They need to acknowledge the superiority of the Greek language and culture like Alexander and his bunch did. Adopt our language as your national one and join the rest of us Greeks as we strive together to expand our culture and ways of life once again throughout the world.
You see my dear relatives, your Macedonian forefathers suffering a cultural inferiority complex made a grave mistake: they abandoned their original "Proto-Slav" dialect and adopted the koine Greek which happened to be the "in" thing in the 4th century BC.
Later on in history, they committed another blunder: they allowed another people, the Slavs, from somewhere in the Carpathian mountains, to "seduce" them with the sounds of another , this time a simplistic tongue with no complicated philosophical and linguistic terms.
Simple language , simple people. No great deeds, no great historical figures after the "abandonment " of Greek.
However, the dark ages for your people were not to last forever. This time the Byzantine Greeks came along to rescue you once again. Cyril and Methodios , the Greek brothers from Thessaloniki were sent to "Christianize" you and teach you how to read and write.
Therefore, the way I see it,it is time for your "unique" Balkan race to repent of the errors of your ways and ask your southern "brothers" for forgiveness for abandoning their language and for "bad-mouthing" the very people who helped you become famous as world conquerors and empire builders.
European Union Forums
The largest forum in Europe to discuss hot topics and important EU issues, consumer rights, envirnoment, business, travel, health and politics.
Macedonia Name Issue
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 07 Jun 2009, 01:54
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 07 Jun 2009, 02:01
Between 1946 to 1949 a horrendous Civil War raged throughout Greece between the pro-west nationalists/anti-communists/royalists/venizelists etc., on the one hand, and the communists/leftists on the other.
Most of the Slav Macedonian communities in western Macedonia (the Greek one) actively supported the latter; this was done during a civil war and at the beginning of the Cold War, when things could have turned "hot" between the west and the Soviet Union.
The communist side (EL.AS, KKE/SNOF/NOF) was supported in the first two years by Tito's communist yugoslavia, with the intent of annexing northern Greek territory into the Socialist RoM, i.e. Yugoslavia!!
This was viewed, correctly, as T R E A S O N and a vile attempt by aggressive neighbours at slicing off your territory, following a devastating 4-year occupation by the Germans and their Allies.
Gruev's VMRO regime in Skopje today is the political descendant of those pitiful efforts, albeit without the armed conflict. No, they're not communists today, they are clueless nationalists trying to "rekindle" a "Macedonian issue" in Greek Macedonia.
It's as simple as that and has nothing to do with Alex Veliki, his dad Phil or the former's horse, Zastava.
Most of the Slav Macedonian communities in western Macedonia (the Greek one) actively supported the latter; this was done during a civil war and at the beginning of the Cold War, when things could have turned "hot" between the west and the Soviet Union.
The communist side (EL.AS, KKE/SNOF/NOF) was supported in the first two years by Tito's communist yugoslavia, with the intent of annexing northern Greek territory into the Socialist RoM, i.e. Yugoslavia!!
This was viewed, correctly, as T R E A S O N and a vile attempt by aggressive neighbours at slicing off your territory, following a devastating 4-year occupation by the Germans and their Allies.
Gruev's VMRO regime in Skopje today is the political descendant of those pitiful efforts, albeit without the armed conflict. No, they're not communists today, they are clueless nationalists trying to "rekindle" a "Macedonian issue" in Greek Macedonia.
It's as simple as that and has nothing to do with Alex Veliki, his dad Phil or the former's horse, Zastava.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 09 Jun 2009, 22:45
Former Yugoslav Macedonians in Denial about the Name Issue Dispute with Greece
Sam Vaknin, Ph.D. - 6/5/2009
Faced with an unprecedented choice between their identity and their future, Former Yugoslav Macedonians resort to a classic psychological defense mechanism: denial. Greece demands that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia change its name, or else forget about its Euro-Atlantic aspirations: NATO membership and EU accession. Former Yugoslav Macedonians react with horror and revulsion to such truly unprecedented bullying. Unable to face reality, they collectively retreat to fantasy.
FANTASY NUMBER 1: The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia will not be asked to change its Constitutional name (Republic of Macedonia)
Former Yugoslav Macedonian intellectuals and politicians like to pretend (and usually succeed in convincing themselves) that Greece will demand only the change of FYROM's name in international settings, bilateral relations, and multilateral organizations.
REALITY: FYROM will be required to change its constitutional name.
FANTASY NUMBER 2: FYROM is actually negotiating with Greece
REALITY: Greece is negotiating this issue with the United States and, to a lesser extent, with certain members of the European Union. FYROM is not a party to the negotiations and is completely irrelevant in this context. It will be presented with a "take it or leave it" solution. If it doesn't take it, it will pay a heavy price, both internally (as its restive minorities rebel) and externally (as it is further excluded from the mainstream of the international community).
Thus, FYROM was utterly shocked by the Greek veto that prevented its accession to the alliance in the NATO Bucharest Summit in April 2008. But this move was coordinated well in advance with both the USA and the EU (they were not happy about it, but they were fully informed and apprised of the Greek decision). They simply did not bother to keep FYROM in the picture.
On March 30, 2008 (days before the NATO summit took place), I published this text in the Long Beach Chronicle:
"High-placed NATO officials informed the Chronicle a few weeks ago that, if the negotiations between FYROM and Greece regarding what has come to be known as "the name issue" fail, NATO will invite FYROM to join the alliance, effective June 30, 2009, and conditioned upon a resolution of its bilateral bone of contention with its much larger neighbor by said date."
FANTASY NUMBER 3: America and many European countries are friends of FYROM and regard Greek behavior and demands as atrocious.
REALITY: While the United States and the majority of the member-countries of the European Union indeed regard Greek conduct as inexcusable and disruptive, they will all, without exception, side with Greece against FYROM. This is because Greece is richer, a key member of NATO's ever-more-crucial southern plank, and an important trading partner of many countries. Macedonia, by comparison, is of very limited importance. Hence, it has no leverage.
FYROM's only hope is to influence American decision-makers through international public opinion; to act against the Greek position in a variety of multilateral and judicial institutions; and to cooperate with core constituencies in the United States in order to change the minds of legislators and bring them to its side.
FANTASY NUMBER 4: Even if there is a referendum in FYROM on a proposed solution, the West will make sure that it succeeds
REALITY: Nikola Gruevski and his government will not publicly support any solution that they (secretly) find unacceptable. At best, Gruevski will remain neutral and leave it to the people to decide. Gruevski will not collaborate with the International Community in perpetrating what he regards as the coerced abrogation of Former Yugoslav Macedonian's natural rights.
FANTASY NUMBER 5: The name issue is very important to the ruling coalition.
REALITY: The name issue is a distraction. Gruevski's main priorities are economic growth and prosperity and nation-building, based on history, both modern and ancient. The name issue is not as important to him as it is to many of his detractors. He is willing to wait out the storm, even if it means later NATO and EU accession. He does regard the name issue as a failure and does take it personally. But he will not let his emotions affect his policies.
FANTASY NUMBER 6: Gruevski is using the name issue to gain political points
REALITY: Gruevski feels very deeply and authentically about this issue. As a person, he reacts badly to injustice and pressure. He hates being blackmailed. He becomes very stubborn when subjected to arm-twisting. On the other hand, it is true that he is overly-sensitive to his rating and popularity and is, indeed, doing everything he can to evade the name issue and put it on the back-burner because he believes that the problem cannot be solved without utterly unacceptable Former Yugoslav Macedonian concessions. He is a pragmatist, so he concentrates on the here and now and on what can be achieved in the sphere of the economy.
Sam Vaknin, Ph.D. - 6/5/2009
Faced with an unprecedented choice between their identity and their future, Former Yugoslav Macedonians resort to a classic psychological defense mechanism: denial. Greece demands that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia change its name, or else forget about its Euro-Atlantic aspirations: NATO membership and EU accession. Former Yugoslav Macedonians react with horror and revulsion to such truly unprecedented bullying. Unable to face reality, they collectively retreat to fantasy.
FANTASY NUMBER 1: The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia will not be asked to change its Constitutional name (Republic of Macedonia)
Former Yugoslav Macedonian intellectuals and politicians like to pretend (and usually succeed in convincing themselves) that Greece will demand only the change of FYROM's name in international settings, bilateral relations, and multilateral organizations.
REALITY: FYROM will be required to change its constitutional name.
FANTASY NUMBER 2: FYROM is actually negotiating with Greece
REALITY: Greece is negotiating this issue with the United States and, to a lesser extent, with certain members of the European Union. FYROM is not a party to the negotiations and is completely irrelevant in this context. It will be presented with a "take it or leave it" solution. If it doesn't take it, it will pay a heavy price, both internally (as its restive minorities rebel) and externally (as it is further excluded from the mainstream of the international community).
Thus, FYROM was utterly shocked by the Greek veto that prevented its accession to the alliance in the NATO Bucharest Summit in April 2008. But this move was coordinated well in advance with both the USA and the EU (they were not happy about it, but they were fully informed and apprised of the Greek decision). They simply did not bother to keep FYROM in the picture.
On March 30, 2008 (days before the NATO summit took place), I published this text in the Long Beach Chronicle:
"High-placed NATO officials informed the Chronicle a few weeks ago that, if the negotiations between FYROM and Greece regarding what has come to be known as "the name issue" fail, NATO will invite FYROM to join the alliance, effective June 30, 2009, and conditioned upon a resolution of its bilateral bone of contention with its much larger neighbor by said date."
FANTASY NUMBER 3: America and many European countries are friends of FYROM and regard Greek behavior and demands as atrocious.
REALITY: While the United States and the majority of the member-countries of the European Union indeed regard Greek conduct as inexcusable and disruptive, they will all, without exception, side with Greece against FYROM. This is because Greece is richer, a key member of NATO's ever-more-crucial southern plank, and an important trading partner of many countries. Macedonia, by comparison, is of very limited importance. Hence, it has no leverage.
FYROM's only hope is to influence American decision-makers through international public opinion; to act against the Greek position in a variety of multilateral and judicial institutions; and to cooperate with core constituencies in the United States in order to change the minds of legislators and bring them to its side.
FANTASY NUMBER 4: Even if there is a referendum in FYROM on a proposed solution, the West will make sure that it succeeds
REALITY: Nikola Gruevski and his government will not publicly support any solution that they (secretly) find unacceptable. At best, Gruevski will remain neutral and leave it to the people to decide. Gruevski will not collaborate with the International Community in perpetrating what he regards as the coerced abrogation of Former Yugoslav Macedonian's natural rights.
FANTASY NUMBER 5: The name issue is very important to the ruling coalition.
REALITY: The name issue is a distraction. Gruevski's main priorities are economic growth and prosperity and nation-building, based on history, both modern and ancient. The name issue is not as important to him as it is to many of his detractors. He is willing to wait out the storm, even if it means later NATO and EU accession. He does regard the name issue as a failure and does take it personally. But he will not let his emotions affect his policies.
FANTASY NUMBER 6: Gruevski is using the name issue to gain political points
REALITY: Gruevski feels very deeply and authentically about this issue. As a person, he reacts badly to injustice and pressure. He hates being blackmailed. He becomes very stubborn when subjected to arm-twisting. On the other hand, it is true that he is overly-sensitive to his rating and popularity and is, indeed, doing everything he can to evade the name issue and put it on the back-burner because he believes that the problem cannot be solved without utterly unacceptable Former Yugoslav Macedonian concessions. He is a pragmatist, so he concentrates on the here and now and on what can be achieved in the sphere of the economy.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 11 Jun 2009, 23:07
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: Ruling Party Lobbies for Name Compromise
Skopje | 11 June 2009 |
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s ruling VMRO DPMNE party is attempting to persuade its hard core members to agree to a compromise with Greece regarding the country’s disputed name, local media cited unnamed party sources as saying on Thursday.
The centre-right party has not yet commented on the media claims.
An unnamed party source allegedly told the local Vreme daily that VMRO DPMNE activists had already been given instructions from the leadership to start laying the groundwork for the acceptance of a compromise over the name dispute among its members.
The party, which won much of its unmatched support in the last March election portraying itself as a hard-core defender of the country's constitutional name, Macedonia, is now being forced to shift its policy due to pressure from the west, which is uring a swift solution to the dispute with Greece, the source was quoted as saying.
The source reporteldy said it would be particularly difficult to persuade people to be more open towards compromise and that round tables with party intellectuals would be staged over the summer in an attempt to sway opinion on the sensitive issue.
FYROM and Greece are engulfed in a long-running dispute over the use of FYROM’s formal name, which Greece perceives as a threat to its territorial integrity. Athens argues that the name of Macedonia, the same name of Greece's northern province, implies Skopje’s territorial claims towards it.
Last year, the row intensified after Greece blocked FYROM’s NATO, demanding the name be changed. The west, seen as catalyst in the UN-sponsored talks, has urged for a swift solution.
Media speculate that the UN talks are due to resume later this month. The last compromise proposal that was on the table, according to media reports, were several variations on the name "Northern Macedonia".
Media say that Skopje will seek firm guarantees for preserving the Macedonian identity should any compromise take place.
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/20144/
Skopje | 11 June 2009 |
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s ruling VMRO DPMNE party is attempting to persuade its hard core members to agree to a compromise with Greece regarding the country’s disputed name, local media cited unnamed party sources as saying on Thursday.
The centre-right party has not yet commented on the media claims.
An unnamed party source allegedly told the local Vreme daily that VMRO DPMNE activists had already been given instructions from the leadership to start laying the groundwork for the acceptance of a compromise over the name dispute among its members.
The party, which won much of its unmatched support in the last March election portraying itself as a hard-core defender of the country's constitutional name, Macedonia, is now being forced to shift its policy due to pressure from the west, which is uring a swift solution to the dispute with Greece, the source was quoted as saying.
The source reporteldy said it would be particularly difficult to persuade people to be more open towards compromise and that round tables with party intellectuals would be staged over the summer in an attempt to sway opinion on the sensitive issue.
FYROM and Greece are engulfed in a long-running dispute over the use of FYROM’s formal name, which Greece perceives as a threat to its territorial integrity. Athens argues that the name of Macedonia, the same name of Greece's northern province, implies Skopje’s territorial claims towards it.
Last year, the row intensified after Greece blocked FYROM’s NATO, demanding the name be changed. The west, seen as catalyst in the UN-sponsored talks, has urged for a swift solution.
Media speculate that the UN talks are due to resume later this month. The last compromise proposal that was on the table, according to media reports, were several variations on the name "Northern Macedonia".
Media say that Skopje will seek firm guarantees for preserving the Macedonian identity should any compromise take place.
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/20144/
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 11 Jun 2009, 23:11
Report: FYROM, Greece Name Talks in June
Skopje | 11 June 2009 |
The UN-sponsored Athens-Skopje “name” talks will likely resume later this month in Brussels or Geneva, local media in both countries, say citing unnamed diplomats.
During the week of June 20, UN mediator Matthew Nimetz will meet with negotiators Adamantios Vassilakis from Greece and Zoran Jolevski from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to resume the stalled talks, FYROM’s A1 TV quoted unnamed diplomats in Skopje as saying on Wednesday.
Balkan Insight has not been able to verify this report and there has been no official confirmation by either side or by the UN mediator.
Following the reported June meeting, Nimetz will travel to Skopje and Athens, most likely on July 6 and July 8, according to Greek City radio.
The talks have been stalled since the end of last year. The last meeting that Nimetz held with both countries’ representatives was on February 11, after which they were frozen due to elections in both countries.
Athens and Skopje are engulfed in a long-standing row over the use of the formal name of Macedonia. Last year, the row escalated after Greece blocked FYROM’s otherwise sure NATO entry over the dispute.
Greece argues that the name Macedonia, which is the same name of Greece's northern province, implies Skopje’s territorial claims towards it.
The last proposed solution to the name dispute according to media speculation was to officially name "Northern Macedonia".
Western officials are keen to see a quick solution to the dispute in order to move ahead with FYROM's NATO membership.
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/20128/
Skopje | 11 June 2009 |
The UN-sponsored Athens-Skopje “name” talks will likely resume later this month in Brussels or Geneva, local media in both countries, say citing unnamed diplomats.
During the week of June 20, UN mediator Matthew Nimetz will meet with negotiators Adamantios Vassilakis from Greece and Zoran Jolevski from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to resume the stalled talks, FYROM’s A1 TV quoted unnamed diplomats in Skopje as saying on Wednesday.
Balkan Insight has not been able to verify this report and there has been no official confirmation by either side or by the UN mediator.
Following the reported June meeting, Nimetz will travel to Skopje and Athens, most likely on July 6 and July 8, according to Greek City radio.
The talks have been stalled since the end of last year. The last meeting that Nimetz held with both countries’ representatives was on February 11, after which they were frozen due to elections in both countries.
Athens and Skopje are engulfed in a long-standing row over the use of the formal name of Macedonia. Last year, the row escalated after Greece blocked FYROM’s otherwise sure NATO entry over the dispute.
Greece argues that the name Macedonia, which is the same name of Greece's northern province, implies Skopje’s territorial claims towards it.
The last proposed solution to the name dispute according to media speculation was to officially name "Northern Macedonia".
Western officials are keen to see a quick solution to the dispute in order to move ahead with FYROM's NATO membership.
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/20128/
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 13 Jun 2009, 02:57
The simple fact is due to the higher birth rates in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia's Albanian community that the Albanians will be 51% of the population sooner than most people are willing to admit. The Ethnic Slav Macedonians can continue to waste years arguing over the addition of "Northern" to Macedonia or wait and accept whatever the Albanians will impose in 15 years time. The Slav Macedonians should wake up to the fact that this silliness has gone on long enough - accept "Northern Macedonia" and get on with creating a future for children - otherwise start getting them to learn Albanian, because that will be the future official language anyway. The fact that Greece will tolerate the word Macedonia being used at all should make this an acceptable solution to an absurd situation.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 15 Jun 2009, 00:04
EXAMPLE OF A COMPROMISE IN FYROM'S CONSTITUTION
The Parliament of the Republic of North Macedonia
Constitution of the Republic of North Macedonia
Preamble
The citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia, the Slavo-Macedonian people, as well as citizens living within its borders who are part of the Albanian people, the Turkish people, the Vlach people, the Serbian people, the Romany people, the Bosniac people and others taking responsibility for the present and future of their fatherland, aware of and grateful to their predecessors for their sacrifice and dedication in their endeavours and struggle to create an independent and sovereign state of North Macedonia, and responsible to future generations to preserve and develop everything that is valuable from the rich cultural inheritance and coexistence within North Macedonia, equal in rights and obligations towards the common good - the Republic of North Macedonia - in accordance with the tradition of the Krushevo Republic and the decisions of the Antifascist People's Liberation Assembly of North Macedonia, and the Referendum of September 8, 1991, have decided to establish the Republic of North Macedonia as an independent, sovereign state, with the intention of establishing and consolidating the rule of law, guaranteeing human rights and civil liberties, providing peace and coexistence, social justice, economic well-being and prosperity in the life of the individual and the community, and, in this regard, through their representatives in the Assembly of the Republic of North Macedonia, elected in free and democratic elections, adopt . . .
the Constitution
of the Republic of North Macedonia
I. Basic Provisions
…………
Article 7
(1) The Slavo-Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language throughout the Republic of North Macedonia and in the international relations of the Republic of North Macedonia.
(2) Any other language spoken by at least 20 percent of the population is also an official language, written using its alphabet, as specified below.
(3) Any official personal documents of citizens speaking an official language other than Slavo-Macedonian shall also be issued in that language, in addition to the Slavo-Macedonian language, in accordance with the law.
(4) Any person living in a unit of local self-government in which at least 20 percent of the population speaks an official language other than Slavo-Macedonian may use that official language to communicate with the regional office of the central government with responsibility for that municipality; such an office shall reply in that language in addition to Slavo-Macedonian. Any person may use any official language to communicate with a main office of the central government, which shall reply in that language in addition to Slavo-Macedonian.
(5) In the organs of the Republic of North Macedonia, any official language other than Slavo-Macedonian may be used in accordance with the law.
(6) In the units of local self-government where at least 20 percent of the population speaks a particular language, that language and its alphabet shall be used as an official language in addition to the Slavo-Macedonian language and the Cyrillic alphabet. With respect to languages spoken by less than 20 percent of the population of a unit of local self-government, the local authorities shall decide on their use in public bodies.
Article 19
(1) The freedom of religious confession is guaranteed.
(2) The right to express one's faith freely and publicly, individually or with others is guaranteed.
(3) The Slavo-Macedonian Orthodox Church, as well as the Islamic Religious Community in North Macedonia, the Catholic Church, Evangelical Methodist Church, the Jewish Community and other Religious communities and groups are separate from the state and equal before the law.
(4) The Slavo-Macedonian Orthodox Church, as well as the Islamic Religious Community in North Macedonia, the Catholic Church, Evangelical Methodist Church, the Jewish Community and other Religious communities and groups are free to establish schools and other social and charitable institutions, by way of a procedure regulated by law.
Article 78
(1) The Assembly shall establish a Committee for Inter-Community Relations.
(2) The Committee consists of 19 members of whom 7 members each are from the ranks of the Slavo-Macedonians and Albanians within the Assembly, and a member each from among the Turks, Vlachs, Romas, Serbs and Bosniaks. If one of the communities does not have representatives, the Public Attorney, after consultation with relevant representatives of those communities, shall propose the remaining members of the Committee.
(3) The Assembly elects the members of the Committee.
(4) The Committee considers issues of inter-community relations in the Republic and makes appraisals and proposals for their solution.
(5) The Assembly is obliged to take into consideration the appraisals and proposals of the Committee and to make decisions regarding them.
(6) In the event of a dispute among members of the Assembly regarding the application of the voting procedure specified in Article 69(2), the Committee shall decide by a majority vote whether the procedure applies.
The Parliament of the Republic of North Macedonia
Constitution of the Republic of North Macedonia
Preamble
The citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia, the Slavo-Macedonian people, as well as citizens living within its borders who are part of the Albanian people, the Turkish people, the Vlach people, the Serbian people, the Romany people, the Bosniac people and others taking responsibility for the present and future of their fatherland, aware of and grateful to their predecessors for their sacrifice and dedication in their endeavours and struggle to create an independent and sovereign state of North Macedonia, and responsible to future generations to preserve and develop everything that is valuable from the rich cultural inheritance and coexistence within North Macedonia, equal in rights and obligations towards the common good - the Republic of North Macedonia - in accordance with the tradition of the Krushevo Republic and the decisions of the Antifascist People's Liberation Assembly of North Macedonia, and the Referendum of September 8, 1991, have decided to establish the Republic of North Macedonia as an independent, sovereign state, with the intention of establishing and consolidating the rule of law, guaranteeing human rights and civil liberties, providing peace and coexistence, social justice, economic well-being and prosperity in the life of the individual and the community, and, in this regard, through their representatives in the Assembly of the Republic of North Macedonia, elected in free and democratic elections, adopt . . .
the Constitution
of the Republic of North Macedonia
I. Basic Provisions
…………
Article 7
(1) The Slavo-Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language throughout the Republic of North Macedonia and in the international relations of the Republic of North Macedonia.
(2) Any other language spoken by at least 20 percent of the population is also an official language, written using its alphabet, as specified below.
(3) Any official personal documents of citizens speaking an official language other than Slavo-Macedonian shall also be issued in that language, in addition to the Slavo-Macedonian language, in accordance with the law.
(4) Any person living in a unit of local self-government in which at least 20 percent of the population speaks an official language other than Slavo-Macedonian may use that official language to communicate with the regional office of the central government with responsibility for that municipality; such an office shall reply in that language in addition to Slavo-Macedonian. Any person may use any official language to communicate with a main office of the central government, which shall reply in that language in addition to Slavo-Macedonian.
(5) In the organs of the Republic of North Macedonia, any official language other than Slavo-Macedonian may be used in accordance with the law.
(6) In the units of local self-government where at least 20 percent of the population speaks a particular language, that language and its alphabet shall be used as an official language in addition to the Slavo-Macedonian language and the Cyrillic alphabet. With respect to languages spoken by less than 20 percent of the population of a unit of local self-government, the local authorities shall decide on their use in public bodies.
Article 19
(1) The freedom of religious confession is guaranteed.
(2) The right to express one's faith freely and publicly, individually or with others is guaranteed.
(3) The Slavo-Macedonian Orthodox Church, as well as the Islamic Religious Community in North Macedonia, the Catholic Church, Evangelical Methodist Church, the Jewish Community and other Religious communities and groups are separate from the state and equal before the law.
(4) The Slavo-Macedonian Orthodox Church, as well as the Islamic Religious Community in North Macedonia, the Catholic Church, Evangelical Methodist Church, the Jewish Community and other Religious communities and groups are free to establish schools and other social and charitable institutions, by way of a procedure regulated by law.
Article 78
(1) The Assembly shall establish a Committee for Inter-Community Relations.
(2) The Committee consists of 19 members of whom 7 members each are from the ranks of the Slavo-Macedonians and Albanians within the Assembly, and a member each from among the Turks, Vlachs, Romas, Serbs and Bosniaks. If one of the communities does not have representatives, the Public Attorney, after consultation with relevant representatives of those communities, shall propose the remaining members of the Committee.
(3) The Assembly elects the members of the Committee.
(4) The Committee considers issues of inter-community relations in the Republic and makes appraisals and proposals for their solution.
(5) The Assembly is obliged to take into consideration the appraisals and proposals of the Committee and to make decisions regarding them.
(6) In the event of a dispute among members of the Assembly regarding the application of the voting procedure specified in Article 69(2), the Committee shall decide by a majority vote whether the procedure applies.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 18 Jun 2009, 22:48
Ivanov Freezes Relations with Advisors
Skopje | 18 June 2009 |
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s President Georgi Ivanov will temporarily freeze relations with two of his advisors, Dimitar Mircev and Risto Nakovski, following their public statements on solutions over the "name" row with Greece, an unnamed source from his cabinet says.
According to unnamed cabinet sources speaking to local Dnevnik daily on Thursday, the two advisors acted unilaterally by appearing on TV with speculations about what would be acceptable name compromise for the country.
Nakovski said in an interview for local A1 TV that that the possible name “Republic of Macedonia (Vardar)” would be far better solution that the one currently being mooted, “Northern Macedonia.”
He argued that the first name containing in brackets the name of the largest Macedonian river Vardar would be more historically and geographically correct.
Mircev previously pointed out that the name “Northern Macedonia” would be unacceptable for the country.
The president has dismissed these stances as personal and that he would opt for a “reasonable compromise” that would not harm the identity and dignity of the country.
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s Preimer Nikola Gruevski, yesterday speaking in front of his party members, called the local political leader to unify regarding this issue. This happened after Parliament failed to forge a joint strategy for the name row.
Local media says that the confusion over the country’s stance is more evident as the date for the fresh round of UN sponsored talks approaches.
The mediator in the row, the US diplomat Matthew Nimetz, has summoned both sides on talks in Geneva on June 22 after a stall of the process due to the elections in both countries that took place earlier this year.
Last year, the row gained further tension after Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO accession because of it. Athens argues that Skopje’s official name, Republic of Macedonia, implies territorial claims towards its own similarly-named northern province.
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/20326/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y89vfNpxbW0
Skopje | 18 June 2009 |
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s President Georgi Ivanov will temporarily freeze relations with two of his advisors, Dimitar Mircev and Risto Nakovski, following their public statements on solutions over the "name" row with Greece, an unnamed source from his cabinet says.
According to unnamed cabinet sources speaking to local Dnevnik daily on Thursday, the two advisors acted unilaterally by appearing on TV with speculations about what would be acceptable name compromise for the country.
Nakovski said in an interview for local A1 TV that that the possible name “Republic of Macedonia (Vardar)” would be far better solution that the one currently being mooted, “Northern Macedonia.”
He argued that the first name containing in brackets the name of the largest Macedonian river Vardar would be more historically and geographically correct.
Mircev previously pointed out that the name “Northern Macedonia” would be unacceptable for the country.
The president has dismissed these stances as personal and that he would opt for a “reasonable compromise” that would not harm the identity and dignity of the country.
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s Preimer Nikola Gruevski, yesterday speaking in front of his party members, called the local political leader to unify regarding this issue. This happened after Parliament failed to forge a joint strategy for the name row.
Local media says that the confusion over the country’s stance is more evident as the date for the fresh round of UN sponsored talks approaches.
The mediator in the row, the US diplomat Matthew Nimetz, has summoned both sides on talks in Geneva on June 22 after a stall of the process due to the elections in both countries that took place earlier this year.
Last year, the row gained further tension after Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO accession because of it. Athens argues that Skopje’s official name, Republic of Macedonia, implies territorial claims towards its own similarly-named northern province.
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/20326/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y89vfNpxbW0
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 27 Jun 2009, 01:07
NATO Chief Urges FYROM to be Flexible
Skopje | 25 June 2009
The outgoing NATO Secretary General, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, on Thursday urged the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to show more flexibility in solving its spat with Greece, so enabling it to join NATO.
Answering questions during the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council’s Security Forum in Astana, Kazakhstan, Scheffer said he had done everything in his power to help FYROM become part of the Alliance.
“I would like to see your nation in NATO; I have never concealed my own ambition in that. I have been to Skopje many times, but it also means, honestly, that I have to see more flexibility than I have seen till now”, Scheffer said.
Having invested a good deal in relations with Skopje, he said he was sure his successor, Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, would do the same.
Sheffer was head of the Alliance last year when Greece blocked FYROM’s invitation to join, citing the unresolved nature of the disagreement on the use of the name “Macedonia”.
Greece, a longstanding NATO member, argues that use of the term implies a territorial claim to the northern Greek northern province of the same name.
UN-sponsored talks on the issue have intensified since then but without a breakthrough. The UN mediator, Matthew Nimetz, resumed talks this Monday in Geneva. He is set to visit the region in early July. According to media reports, his latest ideas to solve the row involve variations on the name “Northern Macedonia”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esq9QNgu ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW15n0vavqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssfe-ual ... re=related
Skopje | 25 June 2009
The outgoing NATO Secretary General, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, on Thursday urged the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to show more flexibility in solving its spat with Greece, so enabling it to join NATO.
Answering questions during the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council’s Security Forum in Astana, Kazakhstan, Scheffer said he had done everything in his power to help FYROM become part of the Alliance.
“I would like to see your nation in NATO; I have never concealed my own ambition in that. I have been to Skopje many times, but it also means, honestly, that I have to see more flexibility than I have seen till now”, Scheffer said.
Having invested a good deal in relations with Skopje, he said he was sure his successor, Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, would do the same.
Sheffer was head of the Alliance last year when Greece blocked FYROM’s invitation to join, citing the unresolved nature of the disagreement on the use of the name “Macedonia”.
Greece, a longstanding NATO member, argues that use of the term implies a territorial claim to the northern Greek northern province of the same name.
UN-sponsored talks on the issue have intensified since then but without a breakthrough. The UN mediator, Matthew Nimetz, resumed talks this Monday in Geneva. He is set to visit the region in early July. According to media reports, his latest ideas to solve the row involve variations on the name “Northern Macedonia”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esq9QNgu ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW15n0vavqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssfe-ual ... re=related
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 02 Jul 2009, 08:03
FYROM Deputy Prime Minister Quits
Skopje | 30 June 2009 |
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s (FYROM's) Deputy Prime Minister, in charge of the country’s European integration, has announced his irrevocable resignation, the government said on Tuesday. It did not disclose the reason.
“Every Macedonian generation has its own battle to wage. My generation has the task of securing European and Euro-Atlantic Macedonia. I was obliged to lead this project of a generation in your government and for me this was the highest act of patriotism”, Ivica Bocevski wrote in his resignation letter to the Prime Minister, Nikola Gruevski, the government press release said.
“My contribution to the current government is fully exhausted,” Bocevski added. He was not available to comment on his reasons for leaving to Balkan Insight.
The Prime Minister expressed gratitude for Bocevski’s work so far, the statement read.
The minister’s resignation comes months before this autumn’s European Commission report on FYROM in which the Skopje government hopes to receive a green light to begin EU accession talks.
The country was granted EU candidate status back in 2005. However, citing insufficient progress on reforms, Brussels has delayed recommending a start to accession talks since then.
Bocevski took over the Deputy Prime Minister’s office and at the same time took charge of the country’s EU aspirations last year. Before that he was the government spokesman.
Skopje | 30 June 2009 |
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s (FYROM's) Deputy Prime Minister, in charge of the country’s European integration, has announced his irrevocable resignation, the government said on Tuesday. It did not disclose the reason.
“Every Macedonian generation has its own battle to wage. My generation has the task of securing European and Euro-Atlantic Macedonia. I was obliged to lead this project of a generation in your government and for me this was the highest act of patriotism”, Ivica Bocevski wrote in his resignation letter to the Prime Minister, Nikola Gruevski, the government press release said.
“My contribution to the current government is fully exhausted,” Bocevski added. He was not available to comment on his reasons for leaving to Balkan Insight.
The Prime Minister expressed gratitude for Bocevski’s work so far, the statement read.
The minister’s resignation comes months before this autumn’s European Commission report on FYROM in which the Skopje government hopes to receive a green light to begin EU accession talks.
The country was granted EU candidate status back in 2005. However, citing insufficient progress on reforms, Brussels has delayed recommending a start to accession talks since then.
Bocevski took over the Deputy Prime Minister’s office and at the same time took charge of the country’s EU aspirations last year. Before that he was the government spokesman.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 02 Jul 2009, 08:59
The government in Skopje is letting the countries identity slip away.
While the majority of FYROM is of Ethnic Slav background, the government in Skopje should take advantage of Greece's compromise, in finally accepting the word "Macedonia" being used at all. "North Macedonian Republic", "Republic of Northern Macedonia" etc.
If the ΠAΣOK party wins the elections in Greece next year & it looks very likely. They will want no mention of Macedonia in the name at all.
In a few years when the growing Ethnic Albanian population of FYROM goes from 40% to 51% & the Prime Minister in Skopje of Ethnic Albanian origins holds talks with Greece in accepting the "Republic of Illyrade" into NATO & the EU, there will be no mention of "Macedonia" or "Macedonia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmOlYXyH2kQ
While the majority of FYROM is of Ethnic Slav background, the government in Skopje should take advantage of Greece's compromise, in finally accepting the word "Macedonia" being used at all. "North Macedonian Republic", "Republic of Northern Macedonia" etc.
If the ΠAΣOK party wins the elections in Greece next year & it looks very likely. They will want no mention of Macedonia in the name at all.
In a few years when the growing Ethnic Albanian population of FYROM goes from 40% to 51% & the Prime Minister in Skopje of Ethnic Albanian origins holds talks with Greece in accepting the "Republic of Illyrade" into NATO & the EU, there will be no mention of "Macedonia" or "Macedonia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmOlYXyH2kQ
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 11 Jul 2009, 00:33
FYROM Keeps "Name" Referendum Plans
Skopje | 09 July 2009 |
Former Yugoslav Macedonian top officials late Wednesday held a meeting to discuss the latest talks with the UN “name” row mediator Matthew Nimetz, reiterating that any possible compromise with Greece over the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s (FYROM's) name would have to be supported by the public.
The meeting, summoned by Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov, was attended by Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski, Deputy Prime Minister Abdulaqim Ademi, Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki and the country’s name negotiator, Zoran Jolevski.
The leaders “stressed that FYROM remains committed and constructive in the [UN-sponsored] process, in an effort to find a solution acceptable to both sides, one that would be put a referendum before the citizens of FYROM”, the statement from the President’s cabinet says.
Some western observers as well as the country’s main opposition, the Social Democrats, have previously warned that a possible referendum on this highly emotional issue could potentially undermine the whole solution-seeking process, as it will be difficult to persuade Macedonians to accept a change in their name that they deeply link with their identity.
The referendum is embedded in Gruevski’s ruling centre-right VMRO DPMNE party platform.
Last year, Greek-Macedonian relations soured after Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO bid over the 18-year-old row. Athens insists that the name Macedonian implies Skopje’s territorial claims over its own northern province with same name, and is demanding it be changed.
Nimetz came out “more optimistic” than before after he met with Macedonian and Greek officials on Tuesday and Wednesday. He said a solution to the row could be reached “in a period of months”.
Nimetz said that this time around he offered both sides some “refinements and alterations” of his latest October ideas. Media speculate that his October proposal contained some variations of the name “Northern Macedonia” for international reference.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just part of the continuing ploy by Gruevski to destroy the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. I am sure he will be getting his Bulgarian passport once he leaves office. Just like his good friend Ljubco Glupcho.
Skopje | 09 July 2009 |
Former Yugoslav Macedonian top officials late Wednesday held a meeting to discuss the latest talks with the UN “name” row mediator Matthew Nimetz, reiterating that any possible compromise with Greece over the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s (FYROM's) name would have to be supported by the public.
The meeting, summoned by Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov, was attended by Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski, Deputy Prime Minister Abdulaqim Ademi, Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki and the country’s name negotiator, Zoran Jolevski.
The leaders “stressed that FYROM remains committed and constructive in the [UN-sponsored] process, in an effort to find a solution acceptable to both sides, one that would be put a referendum before the citizens of FYROM”, the statement from the President’s cabinet says.
Some western observers as well as the country’s main opposition, the Social Democrats, have previously warned that a possible referendum on this highly emotional issue could potentially undermine the whole solution-seeking process, as it will be difficult to persuade Macedonians to accept a change in their name that they deeply link with their identity.
The referendum is embedded in Gruevski’s ruling centre-right VMRO DPMNE party platform.
Last year, Greek-Macedonian relations soured after Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO bid over the 18-year-old row. Athens insists that the name Macedonian implies Skopje’s territorial claims over its own northern province with same name, and is demanding it be changed.
Nimetz came out “more optimistic” than before after he met with Macedonian and Greek officials on Tuesday and Wednesday. He said a solution to the row could be reached “in a period of months”.
Nimetz said that this time around he offered both sides some “refinements and alterations” of his latest October ideas. Media speculate that his October proposal contained some variations of the name “Northern Macedonia” for international reference.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just part of the continuing ploy by Gruevski to destroy the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. I am sure he will be getting his Bulgarian passport once he leaves office. Just like his good friend Ljubco Glupcho.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 15 Jul 2009, 07:35
FYROM TO REPLY TO "NAME" PROPOSAL SOON
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)will reply to the latest proposals made by Matthew Nimetz, the UN mediator in the Athens-Skopje “name” row, sometimes in August, the Former Yugoslav Macedonian President Georgi Ivanov said.
During his Monday visit to the Croatian capital Zagreb, Ivanov said that a recent statement by Greek officials suggesting preparedness to resolve the issue in line with international laws indicated a possible positive development in the process.
Nimetz visited both Skopje and Athens last week and handed both sides an altered version of his latest October set of ideas for solving the long-running dispute. He sounded optimistic, arguing that the issue could be resolved “within months”.
After receiving Nimetz, Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said Athens was prepared for a deal as long as a composite name for FYROM was found that would contain a geographical prefix and would be for international use.
The relations between the two neighbors soured last year when Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO accession over the row. Greece claims that Macedonia’s formal name implies Skopje’s territorial claims over its own northern province of Macedonia.
In October, media speculated that Nimetz proposed several variations of the name “Northern Macedonia” to both sides. But the details on the span of its use, as well as guarantees for Macedonia’s identity and language, were yet to be determined precisely.
Observers say that if both sides reach an agreement soon, Skopje could hope on a swift NATO entry as of the beginning of next year. This would also mean that Athens would not pose an obstacle to Skopje’s EU accession.
Ivanov’s host, Croatian President Stipe Mesic, in the same context urged Slovenia to restrain from using the bilateral dispute over its border with Croatia to block Zagreb’s EU accession negotiations.
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)will reply to the latest proposals made by Matthew Nimetz, the UN mediator in the Athens-Skopje “name” row, sometimes in August, the Former Yugoslav Macedonian President Georgi Ivanov said.
During his Monday visit to the Croatian capital Zagreb, Ivanov said that a recent statement by Greek officials suggesting preparedness to resolve the issue in line with international laws indicated a possible positive development in the process.
Nimetz visited both Skopje and Athens last week and handed both sides an altered version of his latest October set of ideas for solving the long-running dispute. He sounded optimistic, arguing that the issue could be resolved “within months”.
After receiving Nimetz, Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said Athens was prepared for a deal as long as a composite name for FYROM was found that would contain a geographical prefix and would be for international use.
The relations between the two neighbors soured last year when Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO accession over the row. Greece claims that Macedonia’s formal name implies Skopje’s territorial claims over its own northern province of Macedonia.
In October, media speculated that Nimetz proposed several variations of the name “Northern Macedonia” to both sides. But the details on the span of its use, as well as guarantees for Macedonia’s identity and language, were yet to be determined precisely.
Observers say that if both sides reach an agreement soon, Skopje could hope on a swift NATO entry as of the beginning of next year. This would also mean that Athens would not pose an obstacle to Skopje’s EU accession.
Ivanov’s host, Croatian President Stipe Mesic, in the same context urged Slovenia to restrain from using the bilateral dispute over its border with Croatia to block Zagreb’s EU accession negotiations.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 15 Jul 2009, 07:40
Solana: “Opportunity” For Macedonia Name Deal
Now is the right moment for a compromise solution to the row between Athens and Skopje over the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s (FYROM's) name, the European Union foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, said on Tuesday in Skopje.
During talks with FYROM’s Prime Minister, Nikola Gruevski, Solana urged the leadership to do everything in its power “not to let the wind of opportunity” pass by.
Asked to explain his comments further, he said that all factors at the moment were tending towards an imminent compromise in the long-standing row that has left FYROM standing on the doorsteps outside NATO.
Last year Greece blocked FYROM’s NATO accession bid, citing the failure to resolve the row. Greece claims Macedonia’s name implies a territorial claim to its own northern province of Macedonia.
Last week, the UN mediator in the “name” talks, Matthew Nimetz, visited both countries, offering a set of ideas that he described as variations on his previous ideas, presented last October.
In October, media speculated that Nimetz proposed variations of the term “Northern Macedonia”. But details on the extent of its use, as well as guarantees concerning the Macedonian language, were yet to be determined precisely.
“I bring good news for your country”, Solana said, noting that if all goes well, Former Yugoslav Macedonians could travel without visas to the EU from the beginning of next year.
Solana confirmed that a long-awaited European Commission decision to propose the lifting of visa requirements on FYROM, Serbia and Montenegro would be announced on Wednesday in Brussels by the EU commissioners for justice and for enlargement, Jacques Barrot and Olli Rehn.
At the same time, the EU is expected to note that progress towards scrapping visas for citizens of Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo has been insufficient.
During his stay in Skopje, Solana also met Ali Ahmeti, head of the ethnic Albanian Democratic Union for Integration, DUI, a partner in the ruling coalition, and Branko Crvenkovski, leader of the country’s main opposition party, the Social Democrats.
Solana previously visited Serbia and will be heading next to Kosovo. He will wrap up his tour of the Balkans on Wednesday by visiting Montenegro.
Now is the right moment for a compromise solution to the row between Athens and Skopje over the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s (FYROM's) name, the European Union foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, said on Tuesday in Skopje.
During talks with FYROM’s Prime Minister, Nikola Gruevski, Solana urged the leadership to do everything in its power “not to let the wind of opportunity” pass by.
Asked to explain his comments further, he said that all factors at the moment were tending towards an imminent compromise in the long-standing row that has left FYROM standing on the doorsteps outside NATO.
Last year Greece blocked FYROM’s NATO accession bid, citing the failure to resolve the row. Greece claims Macedonia’s name implies a territorial claim to its own northern province of Macedonia.
Last week, the UN mediator in the “name” talks, Matthew Nimetz, visited both countries, offering a set of ideas that he described as variations on his previous ideas, presented last October.
In October, media speculated that Nimetz proposed variations of the term “Northern Macedonia”. But details on the extent of its use, as well as guarantees concerning the Macedonian language, were yet to be determined precisely.
“I bring good news for your country”, Solana said, noting that if all goes well, Former Yugoslav Macedonians could travel without visas to the EU from the beginning of next year.
Solana confirmed that a long-awaited European Commission decision to propose the lifting of visa requirements on FYROM, Serbia and Montenegro would be announced on Wednesday in Brussels by the EU commissioners for justice and for enlargement, Jacques Barrot and Olli Rehn.
At the same time, the EU is expected to note that progress towards scrapping visas for citizens of Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo has been insufficient.
During his stay in Skopje, Solana also met Ali Ahmeti, head of the ethnic Albanian Democratic Union for Integration, DUI, a partner in the ruling coalition, and Branko Crvenkovski, leader of the country’s main opposition party, the Social Democrats.
Solana previously visited Serbia and will be heading next to Kosovo. He will wrap up his tour of the Balkans on Wednesday by visiting Montenegro.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 16 Jul 2009, 09:11
FYROM’s Ultra-Nationalistic regime detains Vasko Gligorijevic
Vasko Gligorijević, a Serb activist, was arrested by Fyrom's authorities acussed of offending "makedonism”. The news were instananeous spread and published in Greek, Serbian and foreigner blogs.
Vasko Gligorijević recently founded the Slavic Phillelenic Network in Skopje, Fyrom, a NGO, which objective is bringing out serious scientific arguments in Fyrom's claims that her people are direct descendants of Ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great and he has also been a strong criticizer of “Pseudomacedonism”. Vasko Gligorijević is a student of history in the university “Cyrille and Methodios of Skopje. He obtained back his Serbian surname (Gligorijević from Gkligkorov) by rule of court. Vasko’s last message was posted in Facebook saying “I am being arrested tonight. Pray for me all. The police is in my flat, they are searching it.”
Its widely known that exercising one’s right to freedom of expression is an unknown term to FYROM’s regime since the country lives her own "macedonian" myth, and since 1996 by law prohibits any scientific research for the national identity of the country's residents. It´s been 10 days since Vasko Gligorijević was arrested. Fyrom´s newspaper «Nova Makedonija» disclosed that the Serb activist is being drugged in a psychiatric clinic. According to the same publication, Vasko Gligorijević was led to the psychiatric clinic, because he "suffers of schizophrenia". In order to prove his “illness”, they claim that he used two surnames (Gkligkorov and Gligorijević*), hence he has a “split personality”.
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-203057
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boPCu732urk
http://modern-macedonian-history.blogsp ... chive.html
Vasko Gligorijević, a Serb activist, was arrested by Fyrom's authorities acussed of offending "makedonism”. The news were instananeous spread and published in Greek, Serbian and foreigner blogs.
Vasko Gligorijević recently founded the Slavic Phillelenic Network in Skopje, Fyrom, a NGO, which objective is bringing out serious scientific arguments in Fyrom's claims that her people are direct descendants of Ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great and he has also been a strong criticizer of “Pseudomacedonism”. Vasko Gligorijević is a student of history in the university “Cyrille and Methodios of Skopje. He obtained back his Serbian surname (Gligorijević from Gkligkorov) by rule of court. Vasko’s last message was posted in Facebook saying “I am being arrested tonight. Pray for me all. The police is in my flat, they are searching it.”
Its widely known that exercising one’s right to freedom of expression is an unknown term to FYROM’s regime since the country lives her own "macedonian" myth, and since 1996 by law prohibits any scientific research for the national identity of the country's residents. It´s been 10 days since Vasko Gligorijević was arrested. Fyrom´s newspaper «Nova Makedonija» disclosed that the Serb activist is being drugged in a psychiatric clinic. According to the same publication, Vasko Gligorijević was led to the psychiatric clinic, because he "suffers of schizophrenia". In order to prove his “illness”, they claim that he used two surnames (Gkligkorov and Gligorijević*), hence he has a “split personality”.
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-203057
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boPCu732urk
http://modern-macedonian-history.blogsp ... chive.html
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 17 Jul 2009, 05:09
OUR ANSWERS TO PROFESSOR VICTOR FRIEDMAN'S ALLEGATIONS ON MACEDONIA
By Theodore Spyropoulos – USA SAE Coordinator
Assisted by Marcus A. Templar-Balkans Expert
Dr. Victor Friedman the so-called “expert” linguist from the University of Chicago in his interview with Christopher Deliso of Balkanalysis.com on Macedonia, states: “…it’s been that way ever since modern Macedonians began to call themselves Macedonians. The Greeks have been denying the existence of its Macedonian minority since acquiring Greek Macedonia at the Treaty of Bucharest following the Second Balkan War (1913)…”
Even though Dr. Friedman projects an aura of expertise as a Professor of Slavic and Balkan Linguistics, Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures at the University of Chicago, his answers to Christopher Deliso makes one wonder about his basic Balkan historical knowledge. It is therefore compelling to remind the good Professor of some historical facts regarding the Balkans.
The history of the FYROM is very recent. It started approximately in the fifth century AD. Originally the southern Slavs were called Venedi, but the Byzantines changed their name to Sklavini when they migrated to the south part of the Balkans because the Slavs established alliances, or unions amongst themselves called “sklavinije.” These Sklavinije asserted as their high commanders a regular hierarchy of princes such as Hatson, Akamir and Prvud. In the middle of the 5th century AD the southern Slavs crossed the Carpathian Mountains and settled in the former Roman provinces of Panonia (modern day Hungary) and Dacia (modern day Romania). The first Slavic and Turkic tribes of the Bulgarians started attacking the Balkan areas jointly in the 5th century AD. In the beginning, they robbed the Byzantine population, devastating the countryside and then returning to their bases. Former FYROM President Gligorov verified the above with his statement: "according to the history of the Macedonian people the prevailing view is that we are Slavs. We came from the Balkan [Mountains] in the sixth, seventh century and settled on the land called Macedonia. Even so, this is not what gives the identity of our people" (Kiro Gligorov, Skopje, 2000, 354).
Lasting settlements of Slavs in parts of the Macedonian area began at the end of the sixth century. Up to the middle of the seventh century the seven Slavic tribes, namely Draguviti, Bereziti, Sagudati, Rinhini, Strumljani, Smoljani, Velegeziti, Milingi, Ezerites, Timočani, Abodrini, and Moravijani united in tribal unions, thus turning into an important political and ethnic factor in the history of the Balkans. They are the ancestors of the current Slavic population of the FYROM. According the Yugoslavian Military Encyclopedia (ed. 1974) the Timočani, Abodrini, and Moravijani, at present, are part of the Serbian Nation.
The terms Vardar Macedonia, Macedonia of Pirin and Aegean Macedonia used by the citizens of the FYROM were tricks by the former Yugoslavia to serve effectively its aggressive and political purposes.
There are no official or unofficial records or statistics, according to which the FYROM inhabitants are called “Macedonians.” As all ethnologist scientists agree no separate Macedonian ethnos ever existed in history, (Arnold van Gennep: Traité comparatif des nationalités. Paris, 1922. A, 212;). The expression “Macedonian nation” is the creation of Pan-Slavism, used first by the Russian N. S. Zarganko in 1890, having the meaning of a nonexistent separate ethnicity being the Trojan horse for the Slavic aggression against Greece. Suddenly and out of nowhere a “Macedonian” ethnos was created in Southern Yugoslavia, known by names such as South Serbia and People’s Republic of Macedonia. The Manifesto of Krushevo of 1903 is a testimony to the geographic nature of the term Macedonia and Macedonian people. The hero of the FYROM Goce Delchev states in an authenticated letter that they "are Bulgarians" while the so-called father of FYROM's "Macedonism" affirms the Slavonic culture of the "Macedonians" (Giorgio Nurigianni, 1972).
In the official Turkish census of 1904-1905 there is no mention of any “Macedonians.” The population of the European part of the Ottoman Empire, during the census was a total of 4,183,575 people and had the following structure: 1,823,500 Moslems, 1,619,300 Greeks, 455,000 Bulgarians, 151,235 Jews, 95,350 Armenians, 16,550 Serbs, 13,750 Vlachs and 8,890 Roma. The census was organized by the Inspector General Hilmi Pasha, who was appointed by the Sultan.
The same census shows that in the Vilayet of Manastir the population consisted of 670,250 people and had the following structure: 250,000 Greeks, 223,000 Moslems, 143,000 Bulgarians, 13,150 Serbs, 6,150 Vlachs and 4,950 Jews. The same census also shows that the population of the Vilayet of Thessaloniki, except the Sanjak of Divris and Elbasan consisted of 1,070,100 people and had the following structure: 423,500 Moslems, 362,000 Greeks, 128,000 Bulgarians, 69,200 Jews, 8,650 Roma, 7,350 Vlachs and 1,400 Serbs. (These figures are taken from the book THE COLLUSION AGAINST MACEDONIA by Theodore Sarandis, page 25). The same numbers were reflected in the ethnographic map appended to the work of the Italian ethnographer Amatore Virgili.
A census took place in Yugoslavia in 1940. The official results of this census showed no mention of a Macedonian nation. According to the census, the population of the Region of present day FYROM, amounted to 1,071,426 people and had the following structure: 710,676 Slavs (66%), 334,285 Albanians & Turks (31.2%) and 26,465 Vlachs & Greeks (2.8%).
However what happened to the Slavs residents of Southern Yugoslavia, which was also part of the Vardarska Banovina area for a time after the name change of the region into the Peoples’ Republic of Macedonia in August 1944? Did they all disappear? Did they migrate somewhere else? None of the aforementioned happened. Tito’s totalitarian regime in August 1944, accompanied by Stalin’s mandate, direction and blessing and the slavish cooperation and allegiance of all totalitarian consanguineous parties and governments, aimed to rename the region People’s Republic of Macedonia and its inhabitants to become “Macedonians” overnight. All Eastern bloc countries were aiming to usurp Greek Macedonia with its warm port of Thessaloniki as their trophy.
During the Balkan Wars 1912-13 there was no “Macedonian” army to fight the rights of the supposed “Macedonians.” During the negotiating talks of the Bucharest Treaty, there were no representatives of any “Macedonian Nation”. The 1914 Carnegie Report (Report of the International Commission to Report on the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars) not only did not record the existence of a “Macedonian” army, but neither did it record the existence of any “ethnic Macedonian” civilians.
In 1921 in Moscow, the Komintern (3rd Communist International) overviewed the seizure of Macedonia and Thrace in Greece, placing them into the communist bloc. Based on this decision, and when other efforts had no results, the then powerful Yugoslav Communist leader Tito had to find another approach. He suddenly discovered that the “Macedonians,” are not Greek and the “Macedonian” language is not the Greek language and“Scholars” from the People’s Republic of Macedonia were commissioned to re-write their history books to include the ancient Macedonian History according to the wishes of the League of Communists of communist Yugoslavia, accompanied by perverted maps showing their "Macedonia" going all the way down to the northern half of Mount Olympus. Also, “linguists” led by Blagoj Konev, a.k.a. Blaže Koneski, were appointed to create the alphabet for and refine the "newly discovered" Macedonian language, which, of course, was made to sound as if it were the “natural development” of the ancient Macedonian language. Through their control of mass media and education, the government of People’s Republic of Macedonia then introduced this language and claimed that it is the language that was spoken by the ancient Macedonians. However, this language is grammatically nearly identical to Bulgarian and, due to continuous government interventions its vocabulary tends to include more Serbo-Croatian words that have replaced the Bulgarian words. Former FYROM Prime Minister Georgievski affirming this fact wrote: "I will give an example with the newly formed stupidity expressed in the term 'classical Macedonian language' (language in Ancient Macedonia as a basis of modern Macedonian language?!). The whole story about Ancient Macedonia sounds undoubtedly very nice. However, there is a great problem, a huge hole of about 2,000 years during which we have neither oral nor written tradition, nor a single scientific argument!" (Ljubco Georgievski, FOCUS, 31 March 2008 ).
It is truly unnecessary to be forced to defend the well-known historical facts about ancient Macedonia’s Hellenism after so many books and reputable, respected world historians and archaeologists have written articles about it. The archaeological findings in Macedonia proper and all the way to Central Asia, Egypt and India where Alexander the Great went, including cities with Greek names, coins and statues with Greek inscriptions, letters written by simple Macedonian soldiers and by simple Macedonian women as the curse of the Pella Katadesmos, written in Northwestern Greek dialect, architectural styles of temples, writings by ancient historians, all demonstrate the Hellenism of Macedonia. The marble statues and gravestones in two continents speak Greek! There is not a shred of evidence that a language other than Greek was spoken in ancient Macedonia and in countries conquered by Alexander the Great.
A practical question could be posed to Professor Friedman. Mount Olympus is in Macedonia, Greece. Would the Athenians, Spartans, and the other Greeks have their Gods (Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, Aphrodite, etc) living on a mountain belonging to Macedonia if that province was not part of the Greek world?
Dr. Federico Krutwig Sagredo, President of Hellenic College of Bilbao in Spain in a lecture stated: Macedonians were only the people who were members of a Greek tribe “...Those who are now saying that the Slavs of Skopje are Macedonians are either lying or lack knowledge or they have hidden irredentist purposes ....'' (Hellenic Education, Ancient Greek Courses - 7th Lesson, p. 117).
There is not one scientific argument regarding the imaginary amalgamation of the Slavs with the ancient Macedonians, who according to Fanula Papazoglu’s dissertation were Greek speakers (Fanula Papazoglu, Skopje 1957, 333). The newly authenticated inscription of Katadesmos brings the Macedonian dialect in the realm of Northwestern Greek dialects along with Acarnanian and Aetolian, which verifies Titus Livius' statement that "Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians are people of the same speech." Katadesmos bears "the phenomena that distinguish the Northwest Greek dialects" as pointed out by Carl D. Buck (Carl D. Buck, 1907, 241-276).
Dr. Friedman argues that the Bulgarian language differs from the "Macedonian" language because their bases are different. The Bulgarian language has its basis in Sofia whereas the "Macedonian" comes from the Veles, Bitola, Prilep and Kichevo area. If the FYROM language has its basis on the dialect of Veles, Bitola, Prilep and Kichevo area, that statement proves that FYROM Slavic was born in 1945. The government of the People's Republic of "Macedonia" imposed that basis on its people during that time. Based on Friedman's argument, what was the basis of the pre-1945 "Macedonian" language? Sofia? It had to be because the "Macedonian" language did not exist on its own since there were two additional equal dialects, the one of Stip-Strumica and one of Skopje. In addition, as a matter of political agenda and policy successive governments of Skopje inserted through controlled education and press vocabulary from other Slavic languages, especially from Serbian, aiming to create a completely different language from the one the people of that Republic spoke in 1945. To safeguard anything "Macedonian" after its independence the government of the FYROM passed the Penal Code (articles 178 and 179) making the challenge to anything "Macedonian a crime." That includes the universities. What happened to democracy? What happened to the academic freedom and non-attribution?
Regarding the loss of the infinitive, it is a fact that it is a regional issue applying to all south Balkan languages. In the case of the FYROM language it never had one since its mother language, Bulgarian, has long lost its infinitive with a few traces of the old infinitive remaining in the negative Imperative, which has almost disappeared.
FYROM is a small landlocked country in the southern Balkans with serious domestic issues, which exports problems and instability to its neighboring countries. It is the only country in Europe that reciprocity and compromise are unknown, while irredentism and aggression are the norm. It is the result of an ultra-nationalistic government that follows Macedonism, a nationalistic concept created by the communists based on a history that they purposely falsified in order to hide imperialistic and revanchist views. The present ultra-nationalist government of the FYROM continues the communist policies based on the lie of Macedonism. Therefore, if the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia needs a lie in order to exist, its existence is redundant.
http://www.panmacedonian.info/friedman.htm
By Theodore Spyropoulos – USA SAE Coordinator
Assisted by Marcus A. Templar-Balkans Expert
Dr. Victor Friedman the so-called “expert” linguist from the University of Chicago in his interview with Christopher Deliso of Balkanalysis.com on Macedonia, states: “…it’s been that way ever since modern Macedonians began to call themselves Macedonians. The Greeks have been denying the existence of its Macedonian minority since acquiring Greek Macedonia at the Treaty of Bucharest following the Second Balkan War (1913)…”
Even though Dr. Friedman projects an aura of expertise as a Professor of Slavic and Balkan Linguistics, Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures at the University of Chicago, his answers to Christopher Deliso makes one wonder about his basic Balkan historical knowledge. It is therefore compelling to remind the good Professor of some historical facts regarding the Balkans.
The history of the FYROM is very recent. It started approximately in the fifth century AD. Originally the southern Slavs were called Venedi, but the Byzantines changed their name to Sklavini when they migrated to the south part of the Balkans because the Slavs established alliances, or unions amongst themselves called “sklavinije.” These Sklavinije asserted as their high commanders a regular hierarchy of princes such as Hatson, Akamir and Prvud. In the middle of the 5th century AD the southern Slavs crossed the Carpathian Mountains and settled in the former Roman provinces of Panonia (modern day Hungary) and Dacia (modern day Romania). The first Slavic and Turkic tribes of the Bulgarians started attacking the Balkan areas jointly in the 5th century AD. In the beginning, they robbed the Byzantine population, devastating the countryside and then returning to their bases. Former FYROM President Gligorov verified the above with his statement: "according to the history of the Macedonian people the prevailing view is that we are Slavs. We came from the Balkan [Mountains] in the sixth, seventh century and settled on the land called Macedonia. Even so, this is not what gives the identity of our people" (Kiro Gligorov, Skopje, 2000, 354).
Lasting settlements of Slavs in parts of the Macedonian area began at the end of the sixth century. Up to the middle of the seventh century the seven Slavic tribes, namely Draguviti, Bereziti, Sagudati, Rinhini, Strumljani, Smoljani, Velegeziti, Milingi, Ezerites, Timočani, Abodrini, and Moravijani united in tribal unions, thus turning into an important political and ethnic factor in the history of the Balkans. They are the ancestors of the current Slavic population of the FYROM. According the Yugoslavian Military Encyclopedia (ed. 1974) the Timočani, Abodrini, and Moravijani, at present, are part of the Serbian Nation.
The terms Vardar Macedonia, Macedonia of Pirin and Aegean Macedonia used by the citizens of the FYROM were tricks by the former Yugoslavia to serve effectively its aggressive and political purposes.
There are no official or unofficial records or statistics, according to which the FYROM inhabitants are called “Macedonians.” As all ethnologist scientists agree no separate Macedonian ethnos ever existed in history, (Arnold van Gennep: Traité comparatif des nationalités. Paris, 1922. A, 212;). The expression “Macedonian nation” is the creation of Pan-Slavism, used first by the Russian N. S. Zarganko in 1890, having the meaning of a nonexistent separate ethnicity being the Trojan horse for the Slavic aggression against Greece. Suddenly and out of nowhere a “Macedonian” ethnos was created in Southern Yugoslavia, known by names such as South Serbia and People’s Republic of Macedonia. The Manifesto of Krushevo of 1903 is a testimony to the geographic nature of the term Macedonia and Macedonian people. The hero of the FYROM Goce Delchev states in an authenticated letter that they "are Bulgarians" while the so-called father of FYROM's "Macedonism" affirms the Slavonic culture of the "Macedonians" (Giorgio Nurigianni, 1972).
In the official Turkish census of 1904-1905 there is no mention of any “Macedonians.” The population of the European part of the Ottoman Empire, during the census was a total of 4,183,575 people and had the following structure: 1,823,500 Moslems, 1,619,300 Greeks, 455,000 Bulgarians, 151,235 Jews, 95,350 Armenians, 16,550 Serbs, 13,750 Vlachs and 8,890 Roma. The census was organized by the Inspector General Hilmi Pasha, who was appointed by the Sultan.
The same census shows that in the Vilayet of Manastir the population consisted of 670,250 people and had the following structure: 250,000 Greeks, 223,000 Moslems, 143,000 Bulgarians, 13,150 Serbs, 6,150 Vlachs and 4,950 Jews. The same census also shows that the population of the Vilayet of Thessaloniki, except the Sanjak of Divris and Elbasan consisted of 1,070,100 people and had the following structure: 423,500 Moslems, 362,000 Greeks, 128,000 Bulgarians, 69,200 Jews, 8,650 Roma, 7,350 Vlachs and 1,400 Serbs. (These figures are taken from the book THE COLLUSION AGAINST MACEDONIA by Theodore Sarandis, page 25). The same numbers were reflected in the ethnographic map appended to the work of the Italian ethnographer Amatore Virgili.
A census took place in Yugoslavia in 1940. The official results of this census showed no mention of a Macedonian nation. According to the census, the population of the Region of present day FYROM, amounted to 1,071,426 people and had the following structure: 710,676 Slavs (66%), 334,285 Albanians & Turks (31.2%) and 26,465 Vlachs & Greeks (2.8%).
However what happened to the Slavs residents of Southern Yugoslavia, which was also part of the Vardarska Banovina area for a time after the name change of the region into the Peoples’ Republic of Macedonia in August 1944? Did they all disappear? Did they migrate somewhere else? None of the aforementioned happened. Tito’s totalitarian regime in August 1944, accompanied by Stalin’s mandate, direction and blessing and the slavish cooperation and allegiance of all totalitarian consanguineous parties and governments, aimed to rename the region People’s Republic of Macedonia and its inhabitants to become “Macedonians” overnight. All Eastern bloc countries were aiming to usurp Greek Macedonia with its warm port of Thessaloniki as their trophy.
During the Balkan Wars 1912-13 there was no “Macedonian” army to fight the rights of the supposed “Macedonians.” During the negotiating talks of the Bucharest Treaty, there were no representatives of any “Macedonian Nation”. The 1914 Carnegie Report (Report of the International Commission to Report on the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars) not only did not record the existence of a “Macedonian” army, but neither did it record the existence of any “ethnic Macedonian” civilians.
In 1921 in Moscow, the Komintern (3rd Communist International) overviewed the seizure of Macedonia and Thrace in Greece, placing them into the communist bloc. Based on this decision, and when other efforts had no results, the then powerful Yugoslav Communist leader Tito had to find another approach. He suddenly discovered that the “Macedonians,” are not Greek and the “Macedonian” language is not the Greek language and“Scholars” from the People’s Republic of Macedonia were commissioned to re-write their history books to include the ancient Macedonian History according to the wishes of the League of Communists of communist Yugoslavia, accompanied by perverted maps showing their "Macedonia" going all the way down to the northern half of Mount Olympus. Also, “linguists” led by Blagoj Konev, a.k.a. Blaže Koneski, were appointed to create the alphabet for and refine the "newly discovered" Macedonian language, which, of course, was made to sound as if it were the “natural development” of the ancient Macedonian language. Through their control of mass media and education, the government of People’s Republic of Macedonia then introduced this language and claimed that it is the language that was spoken by the ancient Macedonians. However, this language is grammatically nearly identical to Bulgarian and, due to continuous government interventions its vocabulary tends to include more Serbo-Croatian words that have replaced the Bulgarian words. Former FYROM Prime Minister Georgievski affirming this fact wrote: "I will give an example with the newly formed stupidity expressed in the term 'classical Macedonian language' (language in Ancient Macedonia as a basis of modern Macedonian language?!). The whole story about Ancient Macedonia sounds undoubtedly very nice. However, there is a great problem, a huge hole of about 2,000 years during which we have neither oral nor written tradition, nor a single scientific argument!" (Ljubco Georgievski, FOCUS, 31 March 2008 ).
It is truly unnecessary to be forced to defend the well-known historical facts about ancient Macedonia’s Hellenism after so many books and reputable, respected world historians and archaeologists have written articles about it. The archaeological findings in Macedonia proper and all the way to Central Asia, Egypt and India where Alexander the Great went, including cities with Greek names, coins and statues with Greek inscriptions, letters written by simple Macedonian soldiers and by simple Macedonian women as the curse of the Pella Katadesmos, written in Northwestern Greek dialect, architectural styles of temples, writings by ancient historians, all demonstrate the Hellenism of Macedonia. The marble statues and gravestones in two continents speak Greek! There is not a shred of evidence that a language other than Greek was spoken in ancient Macedonia and in countries conquered by Alexander the Great.
A practical question could be posed to Professor Friedman. Mount Olympus is in Macedonia, Greece. Would the Athenians, Spartans, and the other Greeks have their Gods (Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, Aphrodite, etc) living on a mountain belonging to Macedonia if that province was not part of the Greek world?
Dr. Federico Krutwig Sagredo, President of Hellenic College of Bilbao in Spain in a lecture stated: Macedonians were only the people who were members of a Greek tribe “...Those who are now saying that the Slavs of Skopje are Macedonians are either lying or lack knowledge or they have hidden irredentist purposes ....'' (Hellenic Education, Ancient Greek Courses - 7th Lesson, p. 117).
There is not one scientific argument regarding the imaginary amalgamation of the Slavs with the ancient Macedonians, who according to Fanula Papazoglu’s dissertation were Greek speakers (Fanula Papazoglu, Skopje 1957, 333). The newly authenticated inscription of Katadesmos brings the Macedonian dialect in the realm of Northwestern Greek dialects along with Acarnanian and Aetolian, which verifies Titus Livius' statement that "Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians are people of the same speech." Katadesmos bears "the phenomena that distinguish the Northwest Greek dialects" as pointed out by Carl D. Buck (Carl D. Buck, 1907, 241-276).
Dr. Friedman argues that the Bulgarian language differs from the "Macedonian" language because their bases are different. The Bulgarian language has its basis in Sofia whereas the "Macedonian" comes from the Veles, Bitola, Prilep and Kichevo area. If the FYROM language has its basis on the dialect of Veles, Bitola, Prilep and Kichevo area, that statement proves that FYROM Slavic was born in 1945. The government of the People's Republic of "Macedonia" imposed that basis on its people during that time. Based on Friedman's argument, what was the basis of the pre-1945 "Macedonian" language? Sofia? It had to be because the "Macedonian" language did not exist on its own since there were two additional equal dialects, the one of Stip-Strumica and one of Skopje. In addition, as a matter of political agenda and policy successive governments of Skopje inserted through controlled education and press vocabulary from other Slavic languages, especially from Serbian, aiming to create a completely different language from the one the people of that Republic spoke in 1945. To safeguard anything "Macedonian" after its independence the government of the FYROM passed the Penal Code (articles 178 and 179) making the challenge to anything "Macedonian a crime." That includes the universities. What happened to democracy? What happened to the academic freedom and non-attribution?
Regarding the loss of the infinitive, it is a fact that it is a regional issue applying to all south Balkan languages. In the case of the FYROM language it never had one since its mother language, Bulgarian, has long lost its infinitive with a few traces of the old infinitive remaining in the negative Imperative, which has almost disappeared.
FYROM is a small landlocked country in the southern Balkans with serious domestic issues, which exports problems and instability to its neighboring countries. It is the only country in Europe that reciprocity and compromise are unknown, while irredentism and aggression are the norm. It is the result of an ultra-nationalistic government that follows Macedonism, a nationalistic concept created by the communists based on a history that they purposely falsified in order to hide imperialistic and revanchist views. The present ultra-nationalist government of the FYROM continues the communist policies based on the lie of Macedonism. Therefore, if the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia needs a lie in order to exist, its existence is redundant.
http://www.panmacedonian.info/friedman.htm
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 18 Jul 2009, 02:22
Macedonian issue. Facts and Education.
Πέμπτη, 8 Μάϊος 2008
Macedonian Dispute. Clearing out confusion.
It is not their country (FYROM) that we Greeks object to. Βut the name Macedonian, Macedonia. we do not mean the people of FYROM any harm. it is all about the name.
Macedonia as a name and region is historically Greek and Greek only.
Just like Sparta , Athens, Ionia, etc etc.
For thousands of years before the arrival of Slavs in the area.
Just because Sparta, Athens, Macedonia, Crete, Corinthos etc fought each other or called each other barbarians does NOT mean they are not Greek. Every nation had civil/tribal wars. see there.
That does not prove anything at all. Obviously.
See>>Peloponnesian war in Ancient Greece.
..And because some people like ancient quotes.. Let's see one of the hundreds like it:
"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
* Pausanias, Description of Greece", 10.3.3
-the Phocians, a clearly central Greek tribe were out of the Greek assembly and their votes of the Greek assembly were given to the Macedonians. So you see Macedonians in antiquity were an integral part of the Greek assembly. Same language, same religion shrines. No mediators, no translators. Just Greek tribes...
We are not fighting Macedonia because Macedonia is a Greek word, a Greek place.
>Etymology of the word Macedonia
Ancient Hellenes called Macedonians: Hellenes, Ancient Persians called Macedonians: Hellenes and Ancient Macedonians called themselves: Hellenes
see>> Quotes about Macedonia, ancient and modern.
>Alexander the great
>Alexander name etymology 1.
>Alexander name etymology 2.
>Philip name etymology 1.
>Philip name etymology 2.
The ruling house of Macedon the >Argead Dynasty (Alexander the Great included), explicitly said they were Greeks from Argos, Peloponnesos.
So you see we are fighting thieves of history.
the thieves are -some- people from the south Slav group, Skopians, Slavomacedonians, Vardarskans, FYROMians who want to be called "Macedonians" , using the argument of self-determination but in order to steal all the culture that stands behind this Greek name.
(Nevertheless a big part of them agrees with Greeks, with Bulgarians and the international scholar historian community, including former foreign Minister Denko Maleski see>here, former Prime Minister Ljubčo Georgievski who didn't deny his Bulgarian heritage got Bulgarian citizenship)
Also note that many early national heroes of the Vardarskans call the Slavic people of the region of Macedonia as Bulgarian: On Macedonian Matters, Krste Misirkov says "...We spokе the Bulgarian language and we believed with Bulgarians is our strong power...The future of Macedonia was in the spiritual union of the Bulgarians in Macedonia... The Macedonian Slavs were called Bulgarians...The biggest part of the population were called Bulgarians... All spoke that Macedonians are Bulgarians..."
the division between Vardars and Bulgarians was political and not national (one wanting autonomy of Macedonia and the other incorporation in Bulgaria) and the term Macedonia referring to region as we can witness in even the name of the >>"Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization"
Nowadays they think the whole world is a conspiracy against them.
of course a result of propaganda of communist Tito and ignorance as well as megalomania but also the fear that without the name Macedonia they have literally nothing different than their Slav neighbours and thus not a different identity that they so need for their unriveted country to exist.
You can understand the SlavMacedonian (FYROM) historical confusion by witnessing how they claim both the Macedonian dynasty of Byzantium of Basil II the Bulgar-Slayer (Βουλγαροκτονος) as their own history AND the Emperor Samuel of Bulgaria as their own because he was born in Prilep, modern day FYROM. The Byzantium Macedonian Dynasty was of course a Byzantine Greek Dynasty with Armenian members too. and Samuel was of course a Bulgarian who was born there in Prilep, in what was then the Bulgarian Empire. the fact that Basil of the Macedonian Dynasty was called a Bulgar slayer because he slaughtered Bulgarians of the area (now modern day FYROM) proves FYROM's ancestry which is in accordance with Greek, Bulgarian and international scholarly historical perception.
Another great way to understand the SlavMakedonski confusion and distortion of history are the Miladinov Brothers. They lived in the region of Macedonia and they collected folk songs. their book was called "Bulgarian folk songs", written -and named- by them in 1862. today's FYROM historical perception is that they were "Macedonians" (ie SlavMakedonskis) and this because of the fact that they spoke the Bulgarian dialect that today's FYROMians speak. they did speak the language that today's SlavMacedonians speak but they, the Miladinovs, called their language Bulgarian and the historians of FYROM today claims they were FYROMians.. make your own conclusions..
Bulgarian and FYROMian are very close languages. most scholars refer to the Skopian one as a dialect of Bulgarian and the division is political. in fact they are a dialectal continuum.
See>>Political_views_on_the_Macedonian_language
And don't think this kind of national confusion happened for the first time in history to Vardarskans. there are many examples. the same happened in Moldova. Moldovans now consider themselves a nation different than Romanians but before the Soviet occupation of the territory there was literally no distinction between Moldovans and Romanians. Even today the languages Moldovan and Romanian are identical. >Moldovan language
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/hb/hb_4_10.html
also the pseudohistory used to "support" the wannabe thieves of History reminds us the distortion and baseless assumptions that Afrocentrists do.
like that Egypt was black African and other nonsense.. or the other side of the pseudohistory coin: Nordicism
That Egypt was Nordic White.
Furthermore..
do you know what language today's Greeks speak?
We speak Greek.
Modern Greek is one if not the less changed language in comparison to its ancient form. -it has changed but significantly less than literally any living language.
it's a unique language because of that.
see> Wikiquote Greek language.
>>Greek language
when most other languages are very different within centuries, while at the same time being one of the world's earliest attested living languages.
Skopians are a south Slavic group who came in the balkans in the 6th century AFTER Christ.
not a north balkan group.
>
On the other hand
Ancient Macedonians didn't simply speak Greek. their original language was a Greek, a Hellenic language.
>>> Classification at the Linguist List
resource run by linguistics professors and graduate students
Supposedly how did a Group of people who spoke Greek in 5th century BEFORE Christ,
who fundamentally, essentially and integrally belonged to the Hellenic nation
>Ancient_Macedonian_language
Wikiquotes on Macedonia
managed to speak SLAVIC, skopian, a language mutually intelligible to common modern Bulgarian and very close to other Slavic languages?
See>South_Slavic_languages
How do you explain all that apart from Slavic migrations?
>Slavic_tribes#Slavic_migrations
that doubletriple-proves Skopians are slavs.
there is literally no scholar in FYROM or elsewhere denying that.
see> South_Slavs
The nation birth of the fake Makedonskis is so recent, that their first forefathers couldn't and didn't clear out the separate identity of them and the Bulgarians. they said they were Macedonians(FYROMians) but Bulgarians too. and almost all of them fought for Bulgarian interests. identity confusion is connected with the nation birth of Makedonskis.
and FYROMians don't just steal from Greeks. but from their Bulgarian brothers too. there is much tension between them about this.
see> Gotse_Delchev
Slavs came in the area in the 6th to 10th century AFTER CHRIST.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are!
We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia.
Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."
quote by Kiro Gligorov, (first democratically elected president of FYROM, referring to the citizens of his country), Toronto Star, March 15, 1992, a quote which caused an assassination attempt by his compatriots that left him half blind.
"For all of us who love History, and know History, Macedonia is as Greek as the Acropolis."
quote by Mike Rann, Australian Politician, Eleftherotypia newspaper, May 05, 2007
from>Wikiquotes on Macedonia
the Greek province of Macedon has been there being Greek, talking Greek since the dawn of history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makednos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ma ... n_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_civilization
Do you understand all these?
Would you let people change history and distort and steal it?
Greeks are defending JUSTICE.
Nothing more.
Read all these and then talk.
Do you get this or don't you?
Are you with Justice or Theft?
simply put by a Macedonian>
"I TOO am a Macedonian, and I TOO have a right to self-identification. Call me Macedonian TOO! Without qualifiers?(Greek- Slav-Chinese-Vardar-Macedonian)
No, I don't fucking care; I haven't developed a complex about them. Call me Greek Macedonian, if you wish."
also see Scientist Foundalis's Blog
IMPORTANT: all these above are not just a the Greek Point Of View but also a Serbian POV and the Bulgarian POV (both also Slavs) and the educated FYROMians' view.
Have a look>
FYROM's first President>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEWojHzP8dw
Bulgarian showman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVzPSwV_4K8
..and American POV >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjR6Hzh9kU4
new Britannica Encyclopedia online videos >
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRWl-KE53v8
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GItvDlRyJGk
..also after making this blog I found more and more evidence from all sides that point towards the same conclusion about the confusion, terror violent tactics and the propaganda that still breeds from the Skopian side.>>
Bulgarian Documentary>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU0cE4CIZQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO4dBGi003s
All points in this blog were made by historians and linguists, scientists. i just gathered the facts.
you can find the publications through wikipedia citations.
All facts and links are sourced and verifiable 100%.
NOTE: that this is not a made-up nationalistic argument blogspot.not out-of-context made-up fantasies..
but it contains tens of sites that contain hundreds of high value scholar publications from throughout the ages and different etymology dictionaries, as you can see, as well as many points of view. find the relevant books from the Wikipedia inline citations and see the tens of neutral sites i have given here, like of those internationally recognized Museums.
Feel free to use the text above and the links for your conversations about the Macedonian subject.
..and because i play fair I will give you the other side's POV the self-called "Macedonians" or natively Makedonski pov>>
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/
and http://darvel-unitedmacedonia.blogspot.com/ enjoy.
and more funny Fyromian arguments, some funny and some really funny xD
-http://freetexthost.com/rnuxijdtvl
-http://freetexthost.com/0e4d3gypmb
Also see
>The Basic Narrative of Pseudomacedonian Ideology (written by a Vardar Slav)
>Overview and cause of the Macedonian issue.
Thank you for educating yourself.
http://macedonianfacts.blogspot.com/
Πέμπτη, 8 Μάϊος 2008
Macedonian Dispute. Clearing out confusion.
It is not their country (FYROM) that we Greeks object to. Βut the name Macedonian, Macedonia. we do not mean the people of FYROM any harm. it is all about the name.
Macedonia as a name and region is historically Greek and Greek only.
Just like Sparta , Athens, Ionia, etc etc.
For thousands of years before the arrival of Slavs in the area.
Just because Sparta, Athens, Macedonia, Crete, Corinthos etc fought each other or called each other barbarians does NOT mean they are not Greek. Every nation had civil/tribal wars. see there.
That does not prove anything at all. Obviously.
See>>Peloponnesian war in Ancient Greece.
..And because some people like ancient quotes.. Let's see one of the hundreds like it:
"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
* Pausanias, Description of Greece", 10.3.3
-the Phocians, a clearly central Greek tribe were out of the Greek assembly and their votes of the Greek assembly were given to the Macedonians. So you see Macedonians in antiquity were an integral part of the Greek assembly. Same language, same religion shrines. No mediators, no translators. Just Greek tribes...
We are not fighting Macedonia because Macedonia is a Greek word, a Greek place.
>Etymology of the word Macedonia
Ancient Hellenes called Macedonians: Hellenes, Ancient Persians called Macedonians: Hellenes and Ancient Macedonians called themselves: Hellenes
see>> Quotes about Macedonia, ancient and modern.
>Alexander the great
>Alexander name etymology 1.
>Alexander name etymology 2.
>Philip name etymology 1.
>Philip name etymology 2.
The ruling house of Macedon the >Argead Dynasty (Alexander the Great included), explicitly said they were Greeks from Argos, Peloponnesos.
So you see we are fighting thieves of history.
the thieves are -some- people from the south Slav group, Skopians, Slavomacedonians, Vardarskans, FYROMians who want to be called "Macedonians" , using the argument of self-determination but in order to steal all the culture that stands behind this Greek name.
(Nevertheless a big part of them agrees with Greeks, with Bulgarians and the international scholar historian community, including former foreign Minister Denko Maleski see>here, former Prime Minister Ljubčo Georgievski who didn't deny his Bulgarian heritage got Bulgarian citizenship)
Also note that many early national heroes of the Vardarskans call the Slavic people of the region of Macedonia as Bulgarian: On Macedonian Matters, Krste Misirkov says "...We spokе the Bulgarian language and we believed with Bulgarians is our strong power...The future of Macedonia was in the spiritual union of the Bulgarians in Macedonia... The Macedonian Slavs were called Bulgarians...The biggest part of the population were called Bulgarians... All spoke that Macedonians are Bulgarians..."
the division between Vardars and Bulgarians was political and not national (one wanting autonomy of Macedonia and the other incorporation in Bulgaria) and the term Macedonia referring to region as we can witness in even the name of the >>"Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization"
Nowadays they think the whole world is a conspiracy against them.
of course a result of propaganda of communist Tito and ignorance as well as megalomania but also the fear that without the name Macedonia they have literally nothing different than their Slav neighbours and thus not a different identity that they so need for their unriveted country to exist.
You can understand the SlavMacedonian (FYROM) historical confusion by witnessing how they claim both the Macedonian dynasty of Byzantium of Basil II the Bulgar-Slayer (Βουλγαροκτονος) as their own history AND the Emperor Samuel of Bulgaria as their own because he was born in Prilep, modern day FYROM. The Byzantium Macedonian Dynasty was of course a Byzantine Greek Dynasty with Armenian members too. and Samuel was of course a Bulgarian who was born there in Prilep, in what was then the Bulgarian Empire. the fact that Basil of the Macedonian Dynasty was called a Bulgar slayer because he slaughtered Bulgarians of the area (now modern day FYROM) proves FYROM's ancestry which is in accordance with Greek, Bulgarian and international scholarly historical perception.
Another great way to understand the SlavMakedonski confusion and distortion of history are the Miladinov Brothers. They lived in the region of Macedonia and they collected folk songs. their book was called "Bulgarian folk songs", written -and named- by them in 1862. today's FYROM historical perception is that they were "Macedonians" (ie SlavMakedonskis) and this because of the fact that they spoke the Bulgarian dialect that today's FYROMians speak. they did speak the language that today's SlavMacedonians speak but they, the Miladinovs, called their language Bulgarian and the historians of FYROM today claims they were FYROMians.. make your own conclusions..
Bulgarian and FYROMian are very close languages. most scholars refer to the Skopian one as a dialect of Bulgarian and the division is political. in fact they are a dialectal continuum.
See>>Political_views_on_the_Macedonian_language
And don't think this kind of national confusion happened for the first time in history to Vardarskans. there are many examples. the same happened in Moldova. Moldovans now consider themselves a nation different than Romanians but before the Soviet occupation of the territory there was literally no distinction between Moldovans and Romanians. Even today the languages Moldovan and Romanian are identical. >Moldovan language
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/hb/hb_4_10.html
also the pseudohistory used to "support" the wannabe thieves of History reminds us the distortion and baseless assumptions that Afrocentrists do.
like that Egypt was black African and other nonsense.. or the other side of the pseudohistory coin: Nordicism
That Egypt was Nordic White.
Furthermore..
do you know what language today's Greeks speak?
We speak Greek.
Modern Greek is one if not the less changed language in comparison to its ancient form. -it has changed but significantly less than literally any living language.
it's a unique language because of that.
see> Wikiquote Greek language.
>>Greek language
when most other languages are very different within centuries, while at the same time being one of the world's earliest attested living languages.
Skopians are a south Slavic group who came in the balkans in the 6th century AFTER Christ.
not a north balkan group.
>
On the other hand
Ancient Macedonians didn't simply speak Greek. their original language was a Greek, a Hellenic language.
>>> Classification at the Linguist List
resource run by linguistics professors and graduate students
Supposedly how did a Group of people who spoke Greek in 5th century BEFORE Christ,
who fundamentally, essentially and integrally belonged to the Hellenic nation
>Ancient_Macedonian_language
Wikiquotes on Macedonia
managed to speak SLAVIC, skopian, a language mutually intelligible to common modern Bulgarian and very close to other Slavic languages?
See>South_Slavic_languages
How do you explain all that apart from Slavic migrations?
>Slavic_tribes#Slavic_migrations
that doubletriple-proves Skopians are slavs.
there is literally no scholar in FYROM or elsewhere denying that.
see> South_Slavs
The nation birth of the fake Makedonskis is so recent, that their first forefathers couldn't and didn't clear out the separate identity of them and the Bulgarians. they said they were Macedonians(FYROMians) but Bulgarians too. and almost all of them fought for Bulgarian interests. identity confusion is connected with the nation birth of Makedonskis.
and FYROMians don't just steal from Greeks. but from their Bulgarian brothers too. there is much tension between them about this.
see> Gotse_Delchev
Slavs came in the area in the 6th to 10th century AFTER CHRIST.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are!
We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia.
Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."
quote by Kiro Gligorov, (first democratically elected president of FYROM, referring to the citizens of his country), Toronto Star, March 15, 1992, a quote which caused an assassination attempt by his compatriots that left him half blind.
"For all of us who love History, and know History, Macedonia is as Greek as the Acropolis."
quote by Mike Rann, Australian Politician, Eleftherotypia newspaper, May 05, 2007
from>Wikiquotes on Macedonia
the Greek province of Macedon has been there being Greek, talking Greek since the dawn of history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makednos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ma ... n_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_civilization
Do you understand all these?
Would you let people change history and distort and steal it?
Greeks are defending JUSTICE.
Nothing more.
Read all these and then talk.
Do you get this or don't you?
Are you with Justice or Theft?
simply put by a Macedonian>
"I TOO am a Macedonian, and I TOO have a right to self-identification. Call me Macedonian TOO! Without qualifiers?(Greek- Slav-Chinese-Vardar-Macedonian)
No, I don't fucking care; I haven't developed a complex about them. Call me Greek Macedonian, if you wish."
also see Scientist Foundalis's Blog
IMPORTANT: all these above are not just a the Greek Point Of View but also a Serbian POV and the Bulgarian POV (both also Slavs) and the educated FYROMians' view.
Have a look>
FYROM's first President>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEWojHzP8dw
Bulgarian showman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVzPSwV_4K8
..and American POV >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjR6Hzh9kU4
new Britannica Encyclopedia online videos >
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRWl-KE53v8
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GItvDlRyJGk
..also after making this blog I found more and more evidence from all sides that point towards the same conclusion about the confusion, terror violent tactics and the propaganda that still breeds from the Skopian side.>>
Bulgarian Documentary>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU0cE4CIZQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO4dBGi003s
All points in this blog were made by historians and linguists, scientists. i just gathered the facts.
you can find the publications through wikipedia citations.
All facts and links are sourced and verifiable 100%.
NOTE: that this is not a made-up nationalistic argument blogspot.not out-of-context made-up fantasies..
but it contains tens of sites that contain hundreds of high value scholar publications from throughout the ages and different etymology dictionaries, as you can see, as well as many points of view. find the relevant books from the Wikipedia inline citations and see the tens of neutral sites i have given here, like of those internationally recognized Museums.
Feel free to use the text above and the links for your conversations about the Macedonian subject.
..and because i play fair I will give you the other side's POV the self-called "Macedonians" or natively Makedonski pov>>
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/
and http://darvel-unitedmacedonia.blogspot.com/ enjoy.
and more funny Fyromian arguments, some funny and some really funny xD
-http://freetexthost.com/rnuxijdtvl
-http://freetexthost.com/0e4d3gypmb
Also see
>The Basic Narrative of Pseudomacedonian Ideology (written by a Vardar Slav)
>Overview and cause of the Macedonian issue.
Thank you for educating yourself.
http://macedonianfacts.blogspot.com/
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by 55° N - 13° E » 22 Jul 2009, 06:07
I think that people ought to have the right to name their country anything they like. If the Greeks liked the name so much they should have named their country Makedonia instead of Greece. It´s too late now! 
-
55° N - 13° E - EU forum Archer
- Posts: 216
- Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 05:56
- Location: Malmö
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 23 Jul 2009, 01:00
55° N - 13° E wrote:I think that people ought to have the right to name their country anything they like. If the Greeks liked the name so much they should have named their country Makedonia instead of Greece. It´s too late now!
I agree, but not a name which already exists. I dosnt matter whether its a name of your country, state, province or city. Otherwise we would have new countries named "Republic of New York", "Republic of California", "Republic of Tetova", "Republic of Bujanovac" or "Republic of Earth".
"Macedonia" was one of the Kingdoms which made up ancient Greece & now is now one of the province's which make up modern Greece. These people of Greece's largerst province "Macedonia" are proud of their history, proud to be Macedonians & proud of their Greek nationality.
Now if you think these "Macedonians" whom have been part of Greece for thousands of years let their identity taken by a new country formed in 1991 from the old Yugoslavia, you are wrong. Yes, they started to call the southern region of Yugoslavia, by the same name as Greece's northen province "Macedonia" thousands of years later in the 1940's but that gives them no right to the name.
The United Nations recognise Greece's northern region as "Macedonia" & thats why the United Nations dont recognise the constitutional name "Republic of Macedonia" & have given them the name "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)" to be accepted in the UN under this provissional name.
If they dont want to be "North Macedonians", "New Macedonians", "Slav Macedonians", "Varda Macedonians" or another name to distiguish them from "Macedonia" in northen Greece they will be part of "Greater Albania" the way the ethnic Albanian's are growing.
Last edited by Hellenicoz on 24 Jul 2009, 00:53, edited 1 time in total.
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by 55° N - 13° E » 23 Jul 2009, 05:41
Hellenicoz wrote:55° N - 13° E wrote:I think that people ought to have the right to name their country anything they like. If the Greeks liked the name so much they should have named their country Makedonia instead of Greece. It´s too late now!
I agree, but not a name which already exists. I dosnt matter whether its a name of your country, state, province or city. Otherwise we would have new countries named "Republic of New York", "Republic of California", "Republic of Tetova", "Republic of Bujanovac" or "Republic of Earth".
.....
Now if you think these "Macedonians" ..... let their identity taken by a new country .... you are wrong.
FIRST: The name did not "already exists" as a country.
SECOND: Names of "country, state, province or city" have already been used more than once, ex. Georgia State - Paris ,Texas - even Kalifornien, Germany.
THIRD: If the Greeks feel that naming Macedonia is having "their identity taken" then they haven´t any identity to take in the first place. I find the idea ridiculous. Putting "name" and "identity" into the same bag holds little logic.
Furthermore the fact that the nationality of someone from the U.S. is "American" (and nothing else) doesn´t seem to "take the identity" away from the vast number of native Indians nor the millions upon millions of population residing in both north and south of the whole continent who are also Americans.
-
55° N - 13° E - EU forum Archer
- Posts: 216
- Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 05:56
- Location: Malmö
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 24 Jul 2009, 01:04
55° N - 13° E wrote:Hellenicoz wrote:55° N - 13° E wrote:I think that people ought to have the right to name their country anything they like. If the Greeks liked the name so much they should have named their country Makedonia instead of Greece. It´s too late now!
I agree, but not a name which already exists. I dosnt matter whether its a name of your country, state, province or city. Otherwise we would have new countries named "Republic of New York", "Republic of California", "Republic of Tetova", "Republic of Bujanovac" or "Republic of Earth".
.....
Now if you think these "Macedonians" ..... let their identity taken by a new country .... you are wrong.
FIRST: The name did not "already exists" as a country.
SECOND: Names of "country, state, province or city" have already been used more than once, ex. Georgia State - Paris ,Texas - even Kalifornien, Germany.
THIRD: If the Greeks feel that naming Macedonia is having "their identity taken" then they haven´t any identity to take in the first place. I find the idea ridiculous. Putting "name" and "identity" into the same bag holds little logic.
Furthermore the fact that the nationality of someone from the U.S. is "American" (and nothing else) doesn´t seem to "take the identity" away from the vast number of native Indians nor the millions upon millions of population residing in both north and south of the whole continent who are also Americans.
1.It didnt exist as a country & still dosnt.
2.Its different when its bordering regions. You can not have the same name under the UN.
3.The people to the north are North Americans & the south South Americans
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by 55° N - 13° E » 24 Jul 2009, 05:01
Hellenicoz wrote:
1.It didnt exist as a country & still dosnt.
2.Its different when its bordering regions. You can not have the same name under the UN.
3.The people to the north are North Americans & the south South Americans
1). Makedonia IS a country.
2). "Different"? You don´t make sense. There are 2 countries called Congo (Brazzaville, Kinshasa), 3 countries called Guinee (Conakry, Bissau, Equatorial), 2 Koreas (DPRK, ROK), 2 Chinas (PRC, ROC), etc.
3). The people are Americans from the top of Canada to the bottom tip ofTierra del Fuego.
Furthermore, "Greece" is an English word. The people there call it Hellas, not Greece. Does that bother you? Do you think they lose their "identity" because we don´t call it Hellas? If Makedonia want to call their country that, it is their business. The Greeks can call it anything they like just as we call Hellas Greece.
Makedonia is a country populated by Makedonians for the very simple reason that the people chose that name for their country. That is their right and that is the fact of life. They didn´t steal that name because there was no country called that until now. If the Greeks don´t like it who cares? If they don´t like the name Greece or Hellas they can change it to whatever they want but they´d rather continue moaning over nothing just to get some attention and to forget that they failed in their invasion and occupation of Cyprus and are themselves responsilbe for the Turkish annexation of the north.
-
55° N - 13° E - EU forum Archer
- Posts: 216
- Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 05:56
- Location: Malmö
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 25 Jul 2009, 03:47
55° N - 13° E wrote:Hellenicoz wrote:
1.It didnt exist as a country & still dosnt.
2.Its different when its bordering regions. You can not have the same name under the UN.
3.The people to the north are North Americans & the south South Americans
1). Makedonia IS a country.
2). "Different"? You don´t make sense. There are 2 countries called Congo (Brazzaville, Kinshasa), 3 countries called Guinee (Conakry, Bissau, Equatorial), 2 Koreas (DPRK, ROK), 2 Chinas (PRC, ROC), etc.
3). The people are Americans from the top of Canada to the bottom tip ofTierra del Fuego.
Furthermore, "Greece" is an English word. The people there call it Hellas, not Greece. Does that bother you? Do you think they lose their "identity" because we don´t call it Hellas? If Makedonia want to call their country that, it is their business. The Greeks can call it anything they like just as we call Hellas Greece.
Makedonia is a country populated by Makedonians for the very simple reason that the people chose that name for their country. That is their right and that is the fact of life. They didn´t steal that name because there was no country called that until now. If the Greeks don´t like it who cares? If they don´t like the name Greece or Hellas they can change it to whatever they want but they´d rather continue moaning over nothing just to get some attention and to forget that they failed in their invasion and occupation of Cyprus and are themselves responsilbe for the Turkish annexation of the north.
1.Macedonia is a province of Greece. The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) is a country. Check it yourself on the official UN website. http://www.un.org/en/members/index.shtml
2.All those countries have slightly different names to distinguish one from the other. If FYROM became "Northern Makedonia" there would be no problem with Greece.
3.The difference with the name "American" for the Nationality of USA citizens is no other people had used that name.
"Greece" is not the official name in English or any language. The "Hellenic Republic" (Ελληνική Δημοκρατία) is the official name & the people are Hellines. Greece & Greek are nick names given by foreigners.
A VERY EASY QUESTION FOR YOU.
IS THE MAJORITY OF FYROM OF SLAV BACKGROUND?
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by 55° N - 13° E » 25 Jul 2009, 06:37
Hellenicoz wrote:
1.Macedonia is a province of Greece. The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) is a country.
YOU don´t know the difference between a country and a province? OMG!
The province of Makadonia is where only northern Greeks live. It is located in the country called Greece. - The country of Makadonia is where Makadonians live.
all the people lving there are Makadonians.
People from the country of Makadonia are Makadonians - People from the province of Makadonia are Greeks. That´s not difficult to understand.
"Northern Makedonia" is not a coutnry. "Makedonia" IS a country.Hellenicoz wrote:2.All those countries have slightly different names to distinguish one from the other. If FYROM became "Northern Makedonia" there would be no problem with Greece.
The difference with the name "Makadonian" for the nationality of citiZens of Makadonia is no other people had used that name.Hellenicoz wrote:3.The difference with the name "American" for the Nationality of USA citizens is no other people had used that name.
Hellenicoz wrote:"Greece" is not the official name in English or any language. The "Hellenic Republic" (Ελληνική Δημοκρατία) is the official name & the people are Hellines. Greece & Greek are nick names given by foreigners.
Greece" is NOT A NICK NAME. It is the proper name in English. A "nick name" might be Grease, or something like that.
Hellenicoz wrote:"A VERY EASY QUESTION FOR YOU.
IS THE MAJORITY OF FYROM OF SLAV BACKGROUND?
A VERY EASY QUESTION FOR YOU. Are the MAJORITY OF USA OF INDIAN BACKGROUND? One thing is for sure that 100 percent of the people with Makadonian nationality are MAKADONIANS.
Perhaps Greece should change its name to FPOEG Greece - Former Province of the Ottoman Empire.
-
55° N - 13° E - EU forum Archer
- Posts: 216
- Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 05:56
- Location: Malmö
Re: Macedonia Name Issue
by Hellenicoz » 26 Jul 2009, 00:26
The name "Macedonia" is been used by the province of northern Greece. If there is a country "Macedonia" why cant I find it on the OFFICIAL UN WEBSITE? There is "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" though and why are your leaders holding talks for a compromised name if your Macedonia?
- Hellenicoz
- EU forum Archer
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 16 Nov 2008, 12:45
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest
